Why Smart Women Podcast
Welcome to the Why Smart Women Podcast, hosted by Annie McCubbin. We explore why women sometimes make the wrong choices and offer insightful guidance for better, informed decisions. Through engaging discussions, interviews, and real-life stories, we empower women to harness their intelligence, question their instincts, and navigate life's complexities with confidence. Join us each week to uncover the secrets of smarter decision-making and celebrate the brilliance of women everywhere.
Why Smart Women Podcast
To divorce or not to divorce? That is the question. Pt.2
Why do intelligent women sometimes remain in unsatisfactory relationships, and why do societal judgments harshly critique divorced women, especially mothers?We know that societal pressures like the ticking biological clock can lead women to settle for less, so how do encourage critical thinking in relationship decisions. These are just some of the provocative questions I explore with Skye Carmichael, a dedicated divorce coach who unpacks the gender biases and societal pressures faced by women navigating divorce.We also discuss the exclusion these women face, especially from married friends who may feel threatened by their presence.
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Coached by Skye - https://www.coachedbyskye.com
When women work with me. I don't want to know about your ex-husband. I don't want to know what he's done wrong or what he continues to do. Let's work on you. Let's work on why you've accepted this behaviour.
Speaker 2:You are listening to the why Smart Women podcast, the podcast that helps smart women work out why we repeatedly make the wrong decisions and how to make better ones. From relationships, career choices, finances, to faux fur jackets and kale smoothies. Every moment of every day, we're making decisions. Let's make them good ones. I'm your host, annie McCubbin, and, as a woman of a certain age, I've made my own share of really bad decisions. Not my husband, I don't mean him, though I did go through some shockers to find him, and I wish this podcast had been around to save me from myself. This podcast will give you insights into the working of your own brain, which will blow your mind. I acknowledge the traditional owners of the land in which I'm recording and you are listening on this day. Always was, always will be Aboriginal land. So hi, smart women.
Speaker 2:This is part two of my discussion with Skye Carmichael, who is a divorce coach. We're just about to answer the question of why are divorced women judged so harshly by society. Now, if you haven't listened to the previous ep, which is ep 14, which is part one of to divorce or not to divorce, that is the question. I really suggest that you do that first, so just have a listen to that, because the second one is in context of the first one. And again I just want to re-articulate that neither Skye nor myself are in any way trivialising or diminishing divorce. We know it's absolutely massive with huge repercussions for everyone. We're just trying to apply some critical thinking to the very fraught question of whether or not to leave a marriage I hope you enjoy. So how is that societal disapproval expressed?
Speaker 1:In many ways, some subtle and some not so subtle. So a subtle way was I can give you an example. Just the other day I was at work in my nursing job and there was a few of us in the office and one of the ladies was talking about a teacher that she knows that is really struggling at the moment with students. You know they're teaching high school students and they're having a lot of trouble. And she was explaining about this young student who was in a lot of trouble and she just said it was completely off the cuff. But she said oh well, you know her parents are divorced so her mum doesn't have a clue what she's doing.
Speaker 1:So it's little, little things like that that are conversations that are thread into the tapestry of our community. You know that it is this notion that it is a negative or a bad thing for people to be divorced. It's also very obvious, you know, when you do go down the route of getting divorced and when you reach that point you have to start telling people and the reactions from people, from people both family, friends, colleagues and complete strangers. 99% of the time they say that's awful, that's devastating and it is quite sad, and you know the grief that you travel through in a marriage breakdown absolutely, but nobody ever thinks wow, wow. You know that must be really hard, but what a great thing you're doing right?
Speaker 2:and I'm just thinking back to you in the nurses station, how come the dad doesn't know what the child's doing? Why is it always the mum? Oh my god, that drives me to distraction, like, why is it the mother? And I know in my own cohort of friends. You know, men leave and it's like, oh there it is. But if a woman dare you know to leave her children, it's like she must be a serial killer, like the bias the gender bias around divorce and women and separation and children is breathtaking, isn't it it?
Speaker 1:drives me mad. It honestly does, you know, and sometimes it's just their own fear that they project onto you. You know, I've experienced that a lot.
Speaker 2:Oh, can you unpack that? That sounds really interesting. What do you?
Speaker 1:mean, I've certainly found, you know, becoming a divorce coach, and once I, when I first told my family and friends that I was going to do this, I think they thought, oh yeah, you know, this is cute, oh good old sky.
Speaker 2:How adorable sky.
Speaker 1:Yeah, go on going through divorce and now other people, and then, when I became quite serious about it, I really found that it divided and it was really quite confronting for people in my inner circle and I. The only thing that I can really put it down to is it must be shining a light on areas that they don't want to go, they don't want to, areas that they don't want to go, they don't want to think about, they don't want to know about it, and I respect that you know 100% so I would never force it down anyone's throat.
Speaker 2:But certainly you know it's such a taboo topic and why I just, I guess we've just got this we still have a romanticised idea, you know, that we're at the altar and we've exchanged our vows and we've said till death to us part, and then that's what we'd better do.
Speaker 2:But you know, I go back to the fact that it's, you know, the onus is on women way, way than men. You know, a divorced man in his 50s and 60s is is, you know, is like hot property, right? I have a lot of divorced female friends. Um, I'm a very social person, so I spend an awful lot of time, you know, with a lot of people around me and they're obviously part of that. And, um, they have confided to me that for some of them, with their other friends that are married, they're no longer invited to dinner parties and things, and we can only assume it's because they are threatened by a single woman in their social group, which is like, how sort of confident are you in your own marriage if you can't have someone in your home who's not married? I find that very telling, don't you?
Speaker 1:absolutely, and isn't that so sad? I find that sadder than two grown people who gave their marriage everything and then decided that it wasn't working anymore. I find that marriage that you're describing sadder.
Speaker 2:I know when you're insecure, you know where you've got to look over your shoulder all the time in case your husband's looking at another woman like wow. And as I keep saying, life is short, You're not happy, Move on.
Speaker 2:Get out you know you've got years and years ahead of you. It's like with our house. We're like, you know, we raised our children here. We're on 1,000 squares. It's really big, it takes a lot of time and maintenance and people are like, well, you can't leave. I'm like, well, yeah, we can, we can leave because I'm not going to buy into the sunk cost fallacy and you know I don't. It's time for something new. It doesn't mean I've failed, and I think the notion that if I divorce, I have somehow failed is so sad and is in desperate need of a reframe, which is obviously what you, as a divorce coach, provides them with correct.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and you know, I heard a quote the other day and it was I can't remember the exact numbers, so just bear with me, but it was something like you know, only 3% of people will actually make the decisions that lead them to the life that they truly want. In which context?
Speaker 2:do you mean? Do you mean in terms of relationship?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So the relationship that they want, the job that they really want, In your case, the home that you really want Right now, the home that you're in, it doesn't suit you anymore.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's right. That's right. And because I have memories and my children were little and we had our other dogs here and we've got a swimming pool and we've had lots of barbecues and lots of parties. Because I'm leaving it, it doesn't mean that that has gone from my memory. I still have that. But the past is the past and now I can do something new and I can do something smaller and it'll be easier for us to go on a holiday because we've got less land and less stuff. And, honestly, the divesting you must have found this, or maybe you haven't, I don't know but the divesting of stuff that we have gone through has, and all the stuff that I thought I couldn't do without, it's just great because it's now. There's almost like the stuff has gone and my brain is clearer if that makes sense, yeah, it does, a hundred percent.
Speaker 1:Yep, absolutely it does.
Speaker 2:And that must be. In a way, it sounds like you had a very amicable end to your marriage, which is brilliant, but is there more space in your brain now that you're not managing that dynamic?
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and there's peace. There's absolute peace, and it's just the most incredible feeling knowing that you have done the right thing, no matter how hard it was. Wow, um, and it's just something that, I think, is why I'm so passionate, you know, about divorce coaching and about showing women that just because your marriage ended doesn't mean that your marriage failed. You didn't fail at anything. You gave it your best. Yeah, how amazing. Hopefully, you've got memories that you will still cherish. Yeah, but your life has changed and the future looks different to what you imagined. That doesn't mean that it's worse. It can be so much better. And I think there's a real peace that comes from making the right decision, no matter how hard it was it's.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that peace around failure and people pleasing links in really well with perfectionism, because they know that people that people please are very often very, very strongly perfectionistic. Like it has to, it has to be perfect, and you can imagine for someone how hard that would be if they were a people pleaser and which is, and then they're perfectionistic on top of that how hard that would be to not go. Well, I couldn't make it work. This has failed.
Speaker 2:So for you to be able to help them to reframe that cognitively, I think is a brilliant service that you're providing, because, as we know, we just think the same thing again and again and again and again and again, and to actually, you know, and to actually, you know, we mow down those neural pathways, but to actually maybe make a new neural pathway where, instead of this is a failure, you can go hey, I did that, I tried really hard. The reality is, this is very, very difficult for me, but this is new and that's okay. I didn't fail, I just did that and now I'm doing something else To be able to reframe. That, I think, is brilliant.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and you know it's where the real work begins too, because it's when you're looking at one. Your marriage has ended. When women work with me, I don't want to know about your ex-husband. I don't want to know what he's done wrong or what he continues to do. Let's work on you. Let's work on why you've accepted this behavior, you know. Let's work on the patterns of your own behavior that you continue. That don't serve you. Let nut that out, so then you can go on and you can have an incredible relationship next time, not just a shade of the same, you know, and that's that's something that a lot of women will do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know right back into that dating world, um, without actually thinking really critically and looking at themselves and that radical honesty that we've talked about.
Speaker 2:That is perfect because of course it's just so easy to go round and round and round and round and he did that and he's to blame, or that happened, but of course there's there's no development in that is there because, at the end of the day, it is a sad but oft-repeated truth that you can't control another person.
Speaker 2:All we can ever look at is our response to them, and I certainly know I have known women who have stayed in marriages for 20, 30 years with feckless men, with disinterested men, with narcissistic men, and they can never, ever look at the bit of why am I taking that behaviour? What is it in me that allows me to be treated like that? And then reframe it into thinking oh, it must be me. I should try harder, because in my experience women take way too much responsibility for their husband's actions and behaviour and then they just round and round and round in circles. So the fact that you go okay, we're not even going to look at that, but let's look at your capacity and your propensity to ignore red flags right, absolutely in a nutshell.
Speaker 1:I could not have said it any better.
Speaker 2:Annie, that's exactly it, yeah that to me is just perfect, okay, wow, I'm really. Will you come back again? This is really interesting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, of course oh, fantastic, you know, we've got, we've got.
Speaker 2:We've got ladies listening, women listening all over the world, and I think this notion of why women take crap behavior, um, we could unpick that really for weeks on end, couldn't we? Because it's just pretty much everywhere. It's pretty much everywhere, and to have the self-esteem to say something the very, very first time it happens is obviously the key. It's like with children. People wonder why their teenagers are out of control. Well, because you let them talk to you badly when they were four, like it all starts somewhere, right.
Speaker 2:So, if we can actually go, can you, if we can actually start to look at the possibility that you're better off on your own than with someone that actually adds nothing to your life, and that's often the dating scene now as well, right?
Speaker 1:It is and it just blows my mind. You know these beautiful, intelligent women that have. Just you know, they do incredible things in their working life and they're incredible mums and the crap that they take from substandard men it blows my mind. So we don't focus on the men, we focus on why.
Speaker 2:Why do you?
Speaker 1:believe? What is it inside of you that you believe you don't deserve better than that?
Speaker 2:We always on the podcast and in both of my books why Snot Women Make Bad Decisions and why Snot Women Buy the Lies. I just gave my own books a plug then listeners, you know I talk a lot about the fact that intelligence is no protection against making errant intuitive decisions, that we make decisions in the limbic system, part of the brain, emotional decisions and then we post rationalize them in the prefrontal cortex and all it means, if we're very, very smart, is that our capacity to post rationalize is just off the scale. So we'll make this emotional decision, you know, like um, look, I'm going to stay in this relationship. Um, I really pushed him to it because I'm so indecisive. So no wonder he got angry at me, right, because I'm really, really indecisive. So you know, I could have a PhD in something. I could be super, super smart, but that is a post rationalizing, no matter what, because I simply want to do what I want to do, what my limbic system, what the emotional part of my brain wants to do. So I don't want to have what I want to do, what my limbic system, what the emotional part of my brain wants to do, so I don't want to have to think any further than that. It all makes sense.
Speaker 2:So this notion that it doesn't happen to smart women is absolutely wrong. We're just really really good at justifying things to ourselves and to other people at the same time. That's what happens. It's happened to me recently where someone got into a dreadful relationship and we could all see it. You know, it's that classic thing, right? We're all going oh my God, oh my God, this is so bad. She was like no, no, no, he's fine and he clearly wasn't. But being able to see it from the outside is not the go, right, you know.
Speaker 1:I do think that as women, we do have it a little bit rough. You know, we have this biological clock that is ticking. So, you know, if we're in our 20s, we are looking all the time for that partner, for that um, you know, husband, for the marriage, for the children to come, and often women. Just they don't know if they're going to be picked. They don't know if it will happen to them. Yeah, they don't know if it will happen to them and, you know, a lot of times it does happen where women think this is good enough.
Speaker 2:Good enough, totally, and it's not.
Speaker 1:It's not good enough, it's not Ten years down the track. It's certainly not good enough.
Speaker 2:And then they're stuck with children, they've got to get the divorce and it's very expensive. All right, well, that they're stuck with children. They've got to get the divorce and it's very expensive all right. Well, that was an absolute delight having you on. I think we covered some really interesting things and I hope that's been interesting to the listeners too, to anybody who's out there and who's maybe thinking to themselves. I don't know, this doesn't feel right. The fact of the matter is I'm not happy and I'm just justifying bad behaviour. Maybe you can rethink that and start applying some critical thinking to your situation, because before we know it, we've turned a certain age and the time has gone and the moment has passed. So don't let that be you. Well, skye Carmichael, that was a delight. Thank you so very much. I'd love to have you back on again. Thank you, annie.
Speaker 1:I'd love to be back on and may I just add one thing for your listeners, please. A lot of time, you know, women are too embarrassed or they are too scared and they're not quite ready to put their hand up and admit that they are contemplating separation or thinking about this. So on my website I do have a free guide for women. It's called a separation survival guide and it just is a. It's a really good thing for any of your listeners that don't want to reach out to anybody yet they don't want to tell anyone, they can just go to my website. Yet they don't want to tell anyone. They can just go to my website, um coach by sky forward slash survival guide, and they can download that and it will just emotionally prepare them for what's ahead.
Speaker 2:We will definitely put sky's website in the show notes and if you are contemplating it and you feel, I don't know, you feel embarrassed or not quite ready to divulge what's going on for you, you can go there and fill it in and perhaps talk to Sky at some point, and I am, of course, always open to coach people if they are having relationship difficulties. Lovely, thank you, sky, and thank you listeners. I hope you all have a lovely day, wherever you are in the world. Signing off, see ya, bye. Thanks for tuning in to why Smart Women with me.
Speaker 2:Annie McCubbin, I hope today's episode has ignited your curiosity and left you feeling inspired by my anti-motivational style. Join me next time as we continue to unravel the fascinating layers of our brains and develop ways to sort out the fact from the fiction and the over 6,000 thoughts we have in the course of every day. Remember, intelligence isn't enough. You can be as smart as paint, but it's not just about what you know, it's about how you think and in all this talk of whether or not you can trust your gut if you ever feel unsafe, whether it's in the street, at work, in a car park, in a bar or in your own home. Please, please, respect that gut feeling.
Speaker 2:Staying safe needs to be our primary objective. We can build better lives, but we have to stay safe to do that. And don't forget to subscribe, rate and review the podcast and share it with your fellow smart women and allies. Together, we're hopefully reshaping the narrative around women and making better decisions. So until next time, stay sharp, stay savvy and keep your critical thinking hat shiny. This is Annie McCubbin signing off from why Smart Women, see you later. This episode was produced by Harrison Hess. It was executive produced and written by me, annie McCubbin.
