Why Smart Women Podcast
Welcome to the Why Smart Women Podcast, hosted by Annie McCubbin. We explore why women sometimes make the wrong choices and offer insightful guidance for better, informed decisions. Through engaging discussions, interviews, and real-life stories, we empower women to harness their intelligence, question their instincts, and navigate life's complexities with confidence. Join us each week to uncover the secrets of smarter decision-making and celebrate the brilliance of women everywhere.
Why Smart Women Podcast
David, the truck, and the convicted criminal.
Ever assume your partner can read your mind? It's a common misstep in relationships, where the illusion of transparency often leads to misunderstandings and drama.Join us for a rollercoaster of emotions as David and I recount our adventures with a pressure water cleaner, the pressure of open house inspections, and the unexpected joys of cleaning. Moving isn't just about physical items—it's a journey through cognitive biases, emotional strain, and, surprisingly, the occasional hilarity of pets escaping through open gates. We'll share how these experiences tested our relationship and pushed us to communicate more effectively.
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I was trying to come up with a post-rationalisation to make me sound not quite so insane, but just giving my truck to somebody who I'd only just met, who and I actually haven't told Danny about this before, but he had a criminal record and had spent time in jail.
Speaker 2:You are listening to the why Smart Women podcast, the podcast that helps smart women work out why we repeatedly make the wrong decisions and how to make better ones. From relationships, career choices, finances, to faux fur jackets and kale smoothies. Every moment of every day, we're making decisions. Let's make them good ones. I'm your host, annie McCubbin, and, as a woman of a certain age, I've made my own share of really bad decisions. Not my husband, I don't mean him, though I did go through some shockers to find him, and I wish this podcast had been around to save me from myself. This podcast will give you insights into the working of your own brain, which will blow your mind.
Speaker 2:I acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which I'm recording and you are listening on this day. Always was, always will be Aboriginal land. Well, hello smart women, and welcome back to the why Smart Women podcast. Today is part two of my interview with my partner, david. Interview with my partner David, where we discuss the process of selling our house after living in it for 24 years. So David has very kindly agreed to come on the podcast and we're going to chat about that. Hello, david.
Speaker 1:Hello Annie, how are you this morning?
Speaker 2:Well, thanks. Thanks for asking. Yeah, well, no, a genuine question, oh okay Well, because you've no a genuine question. Oh okay Well.
Speaker 1:Because you've been complaining a lot lately.
Speaker 2:Oh, have I yes.
Speaker 1:Oh, my legs, my legs, yeah, I have been complaining about my legs.
Speaker 2:Both of us are sort of walking around like mustard gas victims from World War. I stumbling around like we've just come off the battlefield.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've been complaining much more from Annie, more than Annie, for the record.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, david has been doing an astonishing amount of moving large heavy things grinding. What were you doing in the driveway? Would that be hose?
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, yeah, To clean the driveway I hired a 4,000 PSI pressure water cleaner. I mean, the thing probably weighed about 200 kilograms.
Speaker 2:It was astonishing.
Speaker 1:Boy did it pack a punch, but manoeuvring it was some effort. I can tell you that.
Speaker 2:And it's so powerful it actually took paint off the wall in the driveway which David has had to repaint. So David's hands are now in a bad state. Are they still numb?
Speaker 1:Yeah, parts of them are numb Parts are numb, parts of them are tingly, parts of them are just sore. Parts of them just feel burnt.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's not all great For myself. I have spent the last month I think we discussed it last time emptying out the house and carrying large, heavy boxes and cleaning out endless cupboards and I thought I'd be fine. Because I thought well, I'm pretty fit because I go to the gym every day and I'm really sore. I get into bed at night and my legs go boom boom. It's a shrub.
Speaker 1:Newfound respect for people who do manual labour all the time. Yeah exactly, and also I reckon that there's probably a cognitive bias at play that's sort of dumped us into this position, because I think some people with the prospect of moving house and, you know, cleaning up the residence, they'd hire other people to do all this stuff.
Speaker 1:And also they'd do it in six months not three weeks, they'd do it in six months. They'd hire contractors to clean the driveway, do the landscaping, you know, yeah, take the tied pieces of timber out of the ceiling and replace them, but for some reason, compulsively we've been doing it ourselves.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it would appear that once we make the decision which we made in the space of an hour, then we just were sort of full steam ahead, which has always been a bit our way hasn't it. And luckily we've got lovely Harry, who works for us, who is meant to be just producing the podcast and cutting film, and he's now spent the time loading up the truck with me.
Speaker 1:Anyway, that's us.
Speaker 2:So we thought we would discuss those moments in the process of moving, when you're under pressure and you're trying to do it very, very quickly, because we are now in the position of having open for inspections which means the house has to be magazine and look like it's come out of the pages of I don't know what's the what's a?
Speaker 1:What are those magazines? Yeah, Home and Garden. Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So the house now has to look like it's come out of the pages of Home and Garden. You know perfection. You know those pictures when everyone's in white and the parents are thrilled and happy and sitting and relaxing on couches and the children are in white and they're playing nicely and the dog's adorable and perfectly clipped and everybody's sitting on a perfect rug.
Speaker 1:And there are gleaming surfaces.
Speaker 2:There's gleaming surfaces and everybody's just thrilled to be alive. Well, it's got to look like that and it hasn't. Oh, it's getting more.
Speaker 1:That way it looks pretty good, right, everybody wants to buy it, just a little cleaner.
Speaker 2:It does look pretty good, but it is on 1,000 squares. It's enormous. So we all have to sort of involve ourselves in this group illusion anybody that's selling a house that this is the way we live in this sort of incredibly clean, designed, styled manner and of course we don't.
Speaker 1:Well, I'm kind of enjoying it. Yes, the cleanliness and the order.
Speaker 2:Are you? Are you, david oh?
Speaker 1:this is red rag. Didn't you tell me the other day that a lot of people in this, a lot of couples, when they're in this situation they have terrible ding-dongs and domestics? Yes, it can sometimes sort of break up a relationship. Yeah, the drama of preparing a house for sale.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, it's one of the big, apparently, along with divorce and death of a spouse. It's one of the big stressors. It's one of the big life stressors and you can sort of understand why can't you? Because you're under pressure and there's a big, there's a financial aspect to it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it feels like there's so much at stake.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the stakes are high, that's right. So I guess when the stakes are high, so much at stake. Yeah, the stakes are high, that's right. So I guess when the stakes are high, any flaws in our thinking are going to come out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they're amplified. They're amplified, that's right, and I've been noticing that.
Speaker 2:What have you noticed, David? Absolutely.
Speaker 1:What flaws in my thinking?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Okay, well, I mean we can start off with the old illusion of transparency. Okay, you know this idea that you should be able to see what I think are the priorities. So we have to get the pool fence done. We have to get the boundaries sorted out. We've got to get the fences.
Speaker 2:So I've got in my mind Hang on before you talk about that, I'd like to really explain what the illusion of transparency is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, sure.
Speaker 2:So the illusion of transparency is when we are so intimately involved in our own thinking and our feelings and emotions that there is an assumption that other people in this case our primary partner must be aware of what's going on for us, cognitively, our thinking or emotionally as well. Partner must be aware of what's going on for us cognitively, our thinking or emotionally as well. It's called the illusion of transparency. That's right. When you feel something so acutely, you think surely it's obvious what's going on for me. And of course it's an illusion. People do not know what's going on for you unless you actually articulate it Well.
Speaker 1:I know how I do fall into that trap, because I think it's obvious, if I leave these power tools out in this location, with these building materials and these brushes and brooms to tidy up afterwards, I imagine that you'll look at that and go, oh, david's doing a job here. I'll leave those things where they are and he will come back when he's able to and get that job done. But that's not been our experience.
Speaker 2:Well, I think you're very busy and so you've got that going on, and then I'm desperately trying to clear the surfaces because of the 24 years of living in the house anyway. Plus, there is a predilection on your part to accumulate stuff. Would you agree with that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So I'm always going, I've got to clear it, I've got to clear it in a sort of urgent and sort of frantic manner, and then I might say to you Unnecessarily frantic.
Speaker 2:Unnecessarily frantic. In my view view, yeah, in your view. So I might say to you do you want this stuff? But then I might make a general question like, do you want this stuff? And then you're really busy and involved in something else and so you don't really. You know, you don't have time to think about it, so I just sweep everything up and put it away and then because it's with all the other junk and then David will finish the task and say where's the stuff that I had here all lined up ready to go, and then I'll go. I don't know. I think I put it under the house somewhere because I'm always looking at this deadline We've got to get it done.
Speaker 2:So I think that illusion of transparency is just absolutely classic and personally I think that it plays out in intimate relationships. It actually plays out everywhere, but it really plays out in intimate relationships. This assumption that other people are alert and aware of what's going on for the other person and we're simply not, because we're not inside their head, we are not mind readers, and I think it's a big mistake. We make all the time thinking that surely you must know what's going on, and I think we're both guilty of that right.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, 100%. I mean the potential for situations like that to create unnecessary drama are manifold. I mean, it's so easy to A have the frustration. Okay, I can't find a power tool or can't find a precision tool, and so I can get frustrated by that and, you know, maybe that's legitimate. But then to then go to the next level of why doesn't anybody understand what I'm trying to do? Are people trying to actively anybody understand what I'm trying to do? You know, are people trying to actively sabotage?
Speaker 2:what.
Speaker 1:I'm trying to do. Yeah, those are the unnecessary dramas and I can you know I can I can feel myself slipping into it. You know, um, swearing silently to myself and, and, um, and, and you know, musing on on why somebody can't see what is obvious to me.
Speaker 2:Actually, you often say do you not understand what I'm trying to do here?
Speaker 1:Because we have been in different streams Because there has been so much to do in a very short amount of time. I'm done the outside, you're doing the inside, so we are going to be in different streams. I will assume. Well, I will not be able to read your mind and I will walk through the house wearing boots that have cement dust on them and that'll drive you crazy. What are you doing? What are you thinking? You know it could be the drama that arises out of that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I'm always trying, because you've got to keep the house in the state like you're living in home and you know home and what is it? Home?
Speaker 1:and Home beautiful. Maybe it's home beautiful.
Speaker 2:I'm getting confused between home and away, and home beautiful House and garden House and garden Fox and hounds.
Speaker 2:Fox and hounds because it's some sort of, you know, ridiculous societal expectation that we'll look like we're living in a home, beautiful magazine spread. Um, you know I've gotten suddenly there's rugs everywhere. We're not used to rugs and of course I'm saying it's saying to david like he's a five-year-old, don't wear your shoes inside. That's on top of the issue that we've got two grudels, um, that also, of course, are not aware. Um, oh, that's.
Speaker 2:The other thing that happened was that on Saturday morning we had the um, we had the open here and I'm walking around the house at like half past seven and it's funny when you've got animals in the house that the first thing that occurs to you that they have gone is you become aware that things are quieter. And I thought what's quiet in here? Then I went hang on, hang on, hang on. And I said to David did you shut the gate? Because our dogs are extremely opportunistic. And, interestingly, harry said to me the other day. Harry, who is our producer, said why do they want to escape? Because they have a perfect life. And I'm with him. They do have the perfect life and yet if the gate is left open, they are opportunistic and they had run off. David had been cleaning the gate.
Speaker 1:Absolutely on me. I was painting the gate.
Speaker 2:And what happened?
Speaker 1:I was doing one of those. What's one more thing that I can do before I can go to bed? So it was probably about midnight and, yes, I painted the gate and was pleased with my handiwork and looked at it and admired it from a number of angles, but I forgot to close it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, new gate, brand new gate.
Speaker 1:I thought there was another gate at the top of the driveway. Having forgotten it, I'd removed that the day prior. So, having forgotten it, I'd removed that the day prior. So Dog's, gone.
Speaker 2:The dogs have gone and we've got trackers, we've got these things on their collars so we can see where they are. So I open up my phone and they've escaped. We live over the road from a large reserve and they've gone.
Speaker 1:They're miles away.
Speaker 2:They've gone and David said to me I said the dogs have gone and he said should I clean the pool or get the dogs? And I thought about it for I don't know about two seconds and I said go and get the dogs, because in the open can you imagine? You've got this open and you're trying to present the you know the home beautiful lifestyle. And two sopping wet dogs, gigantic grudels, run into the lounge room in the middle of the open and put their paws up on some woman that's come to see, that's probably wearing white linen pants. So I said go and get the dogs. So then he disappeared over the road and had to take my phone because your phone wasn't charged true true, um, which is so.
Speaker 2:That's the add bit. So then he goes over the road and they're very naughty. And where did they go, david?
Speaker 1:Just everywhere, just everywhere. I was watching them, down in the valley, up the valley.
Speaker 2:Yeah, all over the place.
Speaker 1:They eventually came back though.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but you had to go down right into the ravine to get them.
Speaker 1:They were thrilled they burst out of the bush. I've never seen them so happy Jubilant, oh Jubilant had a lovely time.
Speaker 2:And then they go hi, look what are you doing down here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what a coincidence that's amazing. We should meet here.
Speaker 2:We should spend more time down here together. This is great. So then, here together, this is great. So then he had to bring the dogs back up and in the interim I was then trying to get the inside and the house inside and the outside of the house ready for the open, which meant I had to ring my neighbor and say, can you please come over? And she come over, and she cleaned things and we sort of did everything together and then david came back with the dogs and they were wet and had to tie them up outside anyway. Anyway, I don't know what error that is, but there it is. That's what happened. That's just a bit our life isn't it?
Speaker 1:Well? Error leaving the gate open, Just error at the error leaving the gate open.
Speaker 2:It's just distraction, but that's all right. So the other oh, I know what, the guy with the truck, the air tusker.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a classic.
Speaker 2:What happened with him? It Mark the air tasker yeah. That's a classic. What happened?
Speaker 1:with him. It's so us oh my God we're trying to really restore everything to its best possible state, and this was one situation where I thought, well, look, maybe I should actually hire somebody to restore the gymnasium equipment. You know, we've got quite an elaborate sort, elaborate leg press and Smith machine and cables. And all that kind of stuff that we don't use.
Speaker 2:You never use it. Well, because I go to the gym.
Speaker 1:Yes, I know you do.
Speaker 2:Do you use it?
Speaker 1:Yes, sometimes Really.
Speaker 2:How often I would use it much more.
Speaker 1:If you used it, okay, I don't want to use it probably the biggest mistake that we made. Of course, you know I'm a bit of a newbie with Airtasker, even though it's been around for a while and I think it's terribly important to treat people very, very well.
Speaker 2:Well, that's your value system and your ethics, though.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I probably offered to pay too much to do the job. Of course someone picked it up and then I, so I awarded the job. And then, the morning that he was going to come, I got a telephone call and he was at Pendle Hill and his car didn't work.
Speaker 2:Now Pendle Hill, because not everybody is in Sydney, australia, so we're in the Lambie Heights in the northern beaches and Pendle Hill. It's sort of like going from Paris to London.
Speaker 1:It's a good hour away when you've got a car. Yeah, but his car wasn't working, so he was going to have to take public transport.
Speaker 1:Oh my God. So thus began the process of bending over backwards to try and accommodate this guy and his lack of skills and his lack of a car and his lack of know-how. And I think I was sort of trapped by the consistency bias of being nice and understanding and caring, hoping that that would result in reciprocal care and understanding and he'd do a really good job and he'd really lean into it.
Speaker 2:Okay, so I'll just explain the consistency bias. The consistency bias is another cognitive flaw, in that once we have made a decision, we are unlikely to resolve from it. We do not like being seen as inconsistent and it's a good thing to remember that. If ever a shop assistant says to you, do you like the dress, and you say yes, I do. Once they have that agreement from you, you are much more likely at the end of the discussion, after you've tried it on, to say I want it because we don't like to appear inconsistent. So that's, I think you were trapped by the consistency bias right and sunk cost, sunk cost, fallacy yeah, sunk.
Speaker 1:Cost came later, but the consistency was, yes, I. I initially presented myself as being very accommodating, flexible, and we are, so I went and picked him up at the train station and brought him back, which then then eats into the time you've got it's into the time, and so you've made a commitment to somebody and you start working on it and then you realize that he doesn't have much of a clue.
Speaker 1:Um, but you just try and make the best of the situation because that's sunk cost. I've got him here. He can operate an angle grinder.
Speaker 2:So do you want to explain the sunk cost fallacy?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so the sunk cost fallacy is once you've invested in something, then you're much more likely to keep on investing in order to recoup your sunk cost.
Speaker 2:And so I think we discussed this last week or the week before, when we were talking about people women that have stayed in marriages that they are unhappy with. But they may say something like I have committed, I have spent 23 years of my life in this, how can I walk away now? So this is the sunk cost fallacy. Yes, you, you have committed that time. Yes, david had made that decision. But now that fallacy was in full play in his brain. When he'd made that commitment, he'd spent that time. He may as well keep going with it.
Speaker 1:That's right, and that's a situation where it's not a commitment of a lifetime but just a commitment of a couple of hours can sometimes get you into the sunk cost, and I'm thinking I've got to make this work, and so he was running out of steam at the end of the day. So rather than make him, you know, get back to Pendle Hill on public transport, I just handed him the keys to my truck.
Speaker 2:This is just this is. I cannot tell you how McCubbin this is.
Speaker 1:Drive yourself home. Drive yourself home in our truck.
Speaker 2:Have a good night's sleep, yeah, and of course I said to David when he told me that he was going to do this, I said to him but what if he doesn't bring the truck back? And he said these words to me it's okay, because I've got an Apple tracker on the car keys.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So he has to come back because I know where he is, as if he couldn't take the Apple tracker off the car keys. Yeah, so he has to come back because I know where he is, as if he couldn't take the Apple tracker off the car key and throw that out the window.
Speaker 1:Oh look, it was an afterthought. The Apple tracker was an afterthought. I was trying to come up with a post-rationalisation to make me sound not quite so insane, but just giving my truck to somebody who I'd only just met, who and I actually haven't told Danny about this before, but he had a criminal record and had spent time in jail. So he was one of those fellows who you know. I thought this was one of the good things to help him get back on his feet and it's good to have people in the community who are prepared to trust him and he repaid the trust. You know he was back the following morning.
Speaker 2:That is an absolute. That's the second time we've done that.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Where we've helped somebody with a criminal record, except the first time they actually stole our computers.
Speaker 1:He did come back and rob us.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he did come back and rob us.
Speaker 1:But you've thrown everything out from the house at the moment, so there'll be nothing left. There's nothing to rob, nothing left for someone to about.
Speaker 2:Oh, there was a phrase you just used, it wasn't sunk cost, what did you just talk about? Then Another fallacy Sunk cost, consistency bias. Oh, the whole thing is post-rationalising. So the whole purpose of this podcast and we're just using these examples to really highlight how this happens in our brains all the time and this is a classic example that David probably out of his value system as well, because he is very kind wants to help people. So it's a mixture of the value system and also the consistency bias has made a decision which is quite irrational to give a complete stranger the keys to our truck, but has then post-rationalized it. So we make a decision in the emotional part of our brains and then what we do is use our prefrontal cortex to post-rationalize it. And the smarter you are because you're bright the smarter you are, the more likely you are to convince yourself and others that the post-rationalising is actually correct. And that's what he did with that and he did bring it back, and it's hilarious.
Speaker 1:He did bring it back. I mean, the post-rationalisation was if I'm sort of super kind and super flexible with this guy, then he's going to do a really great job. That was the post-rationalisation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and did he do a great job.
Speaker 1:He did a really mediocre job. He used the wrong paint in the wrong areas, he didn't move I mean it's and so I don't know where this comes into the cognitive biases, but it just reinforces this idea that I have in my head, which I know is a rod for my own back, and that is, if it's going to be done properly, then I've got to do it myself, and I know that's not true, because I'm absolutely rubbish at some of these tasks.
Speaker 2:I know.
Speaker 1:I know it would be much better to get somebody else, but I'm sort of gathering out of this whole experience even more information that if it's going to be done properly I have to do it myself and that is, of course, an absolute classic example of confirmation bias, where you just cherry pick the environment and only select data which supports what you already think.
Speaker 2:So when David has a frame up that things only get done properly if he does them himself, he will only notice things that actually support that belief and his brain will discount things that do not and that's how we do it. They don't even hit the frame, right.
Speaker 1:Anyway, we're still edging forward. We have another open on Wednesday morning and the house will be even better prepared than it was last time.
Speaker 2:Yes, except I threw out too much stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we've constantly gone to eat dinner and I don't have enough bowls and I haven't got enough forks and I've thrown out all the cups and we now don't have enough saucepans. Yeah, I don't know, I thinkans. Yeah, I don't know, I think that must be. I don't know what that is. I don't know what the bias is, but I've got a very big bias, don't I around?
Speaker 1:It's a bit like, I think you know, in the midst of all this chaos, it's a very simple idea and then if there's less stuff, there's less stuff to trip over.
Speaker 2:You know. So you just want to to. So it's this one ideal. I'll get rid of it, I'll get rid of it, I'll get rid of it yep, it's just a single single, it's just a story.
Speaker 2:But I mean, it is also true, I have got rid of an astonishing amount of stuff, um, so, so, so that's good, and I guess it's just attentional bias. It's where you put. You know, it's where I put. My focus is on throwing things out. So the that's the bias. If I just keep doing that and keep throwing and throwing, and throwing, eventually we'll have nothing. In fact, david did, because we have to work tomorrow and we're conducting a workshop for ANZ and David did say to me this morning, where's all my white shirts? And I said, oh, they're all gone because I threw them all out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, have you ever heard of nappy sand? Yeah, yeah, you know we could have cleaned them.
Speaker 2:Well, they're still here in a bag. Oh, really I don't want you going through that bag because you'll find other things in there that I don't want you to keep.
Speaker 1:Hang on. What other things have you thrown out?
Speaker 2:Nothing. I did throw out two gigantic, gigantic bags of your clothing yesterday. It looks really good in there and also because I have it years and years ago I used to merchandise, I've made, I even colour-coded your shirts. Honestly, it looks awesome, honestly.
Speaker 1:Look, it might look nice, but if I don't have a nice white shirt to wear, then it's all a bit pointless. You're?
Speaker 2:wearing a navy shirt.
Speaker 1:Well, not that one.
Speaker 2:That's terrible. What's that got on it? Oh my God, I've been working.
Speaker 1:I've been Anyway, so I think we've covered.
Speaker 2:Did we cover primary attribution error? No, not so much. Oh, come on, then Look, I think we did.
Speaker 1:No, I think that. No, we were talking about the illusion of transparency that you should know what I'm thinking oh, the primary attribution error is probably the biggest trigger for drama in this kind of activity of all of them.
Speaker 2:Well, I think primary attribution, error attribution just on its own, is the biggest trigger for drama in every context, in every relationship, work-related or personal.
Speaker 1:Do you want to give the definition, and I'll give you an example of it? Sure.
Speaker 2:So primary attribution error. All right If I make a mistake, because I am very aware of the situation I am in and the prevailing circumstances. If I make a mistake, it's because I'm a victim of circumstances. It's not my fault, I was stuck in traffic. It's because I'm a victim of circumstances. It's not my fault, I was stuck in traffic. That's why I'm late. Let's just say Now, because we are not involved in the reality of another person, whether it be a person in the workplace, whether it's a friend, whether it's an intimate partner. If they make a mistake, it's a character failing, right. So if I make a mistake, it's because I'm a victim of my circumstances. If you make a mistake, it's because of a character failing, yeah.
Speaker 1:So this idea of attribution, it's attributing motivation, it's attributing a story to somebody else so that you can make sense of your own emotional state. And, as I said, I think that this is the trigger for sometimes the most unhelpful and unnecessary drama. And I could feel my brain, my mind, conjuring up some primary attribution error around you, and I'm going to articulate this as a potential thought which didn't come to fruition, but I could feel the wheels going round. So, if we take that situation of I'm trying to say, get the tool shed organised, that's the thing that I need to do. I need to get the tool shed organised, and to get the tool shed organised, I need to install the bench, and in order to install the bench, I need to get the levels right organized. I need to install the bench, and in order to install the bench, I need to get the levels right, and for that I need the, the leveler, and I go for the leveler and the leveler is not there. But hang on, I left it there and I'm going. Oh my God, she has moved it again. She's moved the stuff around.
Speaker 1:Now, if I was to then attribute to any a lack of regard, a lack of care, a lack of respect for what it is that I'm trying to do, then there would be an enormous amount of drama.
Speaker 1:Right, rather than just dealing with the lack of the object to then attribute a character flaw, which is not understanding, not caring, not even thinking about what. You know what poor little David is trying to do, just trying to clear the spaces, because that makes you feel less anxious about everything. If I were to attribute that to Annie, then there'd be a whole bunch of drama. There'd be like that second level of frustration and resentment, which is purely a construction of my mind. So the thing to do in that situation is to actually think about the situations that Annie is in. So yes, there's my situation lots of plates in the air trying to get stuff done, being disrupted by not being able to find stuff. Half of that is my own failings and not remembering where I put things. Half of it is because stuff gets moved. To be able to then include all of those factors in defining what's going on actually helps you to step away from the drama.
Speaker 2:The way to do it is to put your attention onto the other person's circumstances. So then you would say what am I doing?
Speaker 1:Annie, and what was I doing? Oh well, I'm just trying to get everything clear before the open begins.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1:You know, I need space so that I can think.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's right and the same for me. If I just looked at you and gone, well, no wonder you can't find anything as a character flaw. You're so messy. Instead of you know, david is absolutely pulling out all stops to make sure that we get the absolute best price. It is literally if you want to avoid primary attribution error, you literally have to stand in the other person's shoes and populate their current circumstances with as much detail as is humanly possible, and in fact it doesn't take that long. But that notion of attribution, I understand my circumstances. I'm a victim of it. I don't know what your circumstances are, so you're just. You know it's a character failure.
Speaker 1:I actually reckon that there's a shortcut if you're willing to take the emotional hit.
Speaker 1:So the shortcut is everybody's just doing the best they can with what they've got, and he's doing the best she can with what she's got. I'm doing the best I can with what I've got. Now, what you forego emotionally is that little buzz of being righteous I'm doing the right thing, she's not doing the right thing. So you have to sort of let go of that and just go. Okay, imperfect situation, still a lot of moving parts. Everybody's just doing the best they can.
Speaker 2:And I think in long-term relationships where you have seen that person in action over many, many years and you understand that, as I think I understand about you that you always do do the best you can and you're very, very hardworking and will always apply yourself, I think you absolutely can reach. That's actually a really good shortcut which is just to go.
Speaker 2:we're all doing the best we can it must be very difficult for people in relationships when one person're all doing the best we can. It must be very difficult for people in relationships when one person is not doing the best they can. Yeah, I mean, we've. There is a. There is a lot of reciprocity in our relationship, right? And I think there's a lot of mutual respect around application, would you not agree? Yeah, application to task.
Speaker 1:We're both very high on application to task the you know, the the wrinkle is that sometimes I will apply myself to unnecessary tasks and sometimes I think that you will apply yourself to tasks that don't need to be done immediately and that we can take a more measured, methodical you know, chronological approach.
Speaker 2:Well, I think I mean. The big question that we should be able to ask without getting defensive is are we focusing on the right things, just to make sure that the stories in our head are not fictional? Just remembering everyone that we are highly autobiographical.
Speaker 2:We just see our lives and the way it is unfolding before us through a very autobiographical lens, and it's really good to remember that we are mysteries to ourselves. We do not know what is driving our behaviour. We would like to think we're rational and we're not, and that is pretty much the purpose of this podcast is to start to highlight the level of deep irrationality of our brains, of ourselves, right.
Speaker 1:I think there's some really kind of practical things that you can do when embarking on a project like this. That will give you the best chance of reducing the unnecessary drama and so the things that we've talked about transparency effect illusion of transparency primary attribution error, the post-rationalising, when we've already made a decision.
Speaker 1:I think that those things arise when there is ambiguity around the most important elements of the project. You know what have we got and how much time have we got. What are we actually working towards, what are the things that we want to achieve in the time that we've got and why do we want to achieve those things? And if you can have that conversation early in the process, then I think Well, sometimes you don't know, though, do you really?
Speaker 1:No, well, you don't know. But I don't think that that means that you don't sit down and ask yourself the question Okay, let's look at this clearly. How long have we got? What are we trying to achieve? Why do we want to achieve those things? What are the priority things to be done? And it could be. I could say well, the priority is get the pool fence up and the tool shed organised, so then we can manage the rest of the building work from an organised tool shed.
Speaker 2:Now.
Speaker 1:I didn't say that at the start. I didn't.
Speaker 2:Well, because we didn't give ourselves the time, we just embarked, as is our want.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we just got stuck in, which I don't think is probably the best way to do it. Oh, but we got through it. If you want to avoid the dramas that arise with confirmation bias with primary attribution error, With attentional bias illusion of transparency.
Speaker 1:All of those things. They all work because there are unknowns. If you can define just a few of the knowns and you can come back to that, what are you doing? Well, I'm doing this because, remember, we agreed that this is what we were aiming for. Remember, we agreed that this is a priority. So that's why I'm doing this, because, remember, we agreed that this is what we're aiming for. You know, remember, we agreed that this is a priority, so that's why I'm doing this now.
Speaker 2:What you want me to do, we can do later. Yeah, it's a good point.
Speaker 1:People don't generally conduct themselves like that, do they? Well, if you're very action oriented, you know you think that you're making progress by doing stuff.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's and that is. That can be an absolute illusion, the illusion of action and we're actually achieving something. But I think we have. I mean, it looks pretty good. We haven't got a plate to eat off, but never mind.
Speaker 1:Ultimately, I think it's incredible what we have achieved With the help of 25 people, with the help of lots of people Not the dogs, they were useless and we haven't wasted a whole lot of time in unnecessary drama because I think we've nipped these things in the bud yeah, I think that's true, okay.
Speaker 2:Well, I hope this was an instructive chat on how to avoid and dismantle drama when it occurs, just remembering that in every relationship on the planet, drama is going to occur. It's pretty much impossible to avoid. So if you can start to identify the cognitive flaws that are driving your behavior, there's no point identifying cognitive flaws in other people's behaviors, because pretty much people don't like being told that they're wrong. So start with yourself. Get a big list, read my books, why Smart Women Make Bad Decisions, why Smart Women Buy the Lies. Read my books and there's lots and lots of cognitive biases in there that you can investigate and you will start to see your own thinking and behavior reflected in the characters in the books. And listen to this podcast, and I hope this has made a difference. I hope everyone's having a lovely day. Thank you, david.
Speaker 1:You're welcome, Annie. Thank you.
Speaker 2:No, thank you. What's that bit of wood you're holding in your hand?
Speaker 1:Well, this is about to go up at the front of the house. I've had to remove a piece of wood that's gone a bit rotten. Remove a piece of wood that's gone a bit rotten.
Speaker 2:Oh, good, you go and do that. So I've done a very nice surgical job, good, excellent. Goodbye, goodbye, goodbye everybody. Thanks for listening, bye for now. Bye. Thanks for tuning in to why Smart Women with me.
Speaker 2:Annie McCubbin, I hope today's episode has ignited your curiosity and left you feeling inspired by my anti-motivational style. Curiosity and left you feeling inspired by my anti-motivational style. Join me next time as we continue to unravel the fascinating layers of our brains and develop ways to sort out the fact from the fiction and the over 6,000 thoughts we have in the course of every day. Remember, intelligence isn't enough. You can be as smart as paint, but it's not just about what you know, it's about how you think.
Speaker 2:And in all this talk of whether or not you can trust your gut, if you ever feel unsafe, whether it's in the street, at work, in a car park, in a bar or in your own home, please, please, respect that gut feeling. Staying safe needs to be our primary objective. We can build better lives, but we have to stay safe to do that. And don't forget to subscribe, rate and review the podcast and share it with your fellow smart women and allies. Together, we're hopefully reshaping the narrative around women and making better decisions. So until next time, stay sharp, stay savvy decisions. So until next time, stay sharp, stay savvy and keep your critical thinking hat shiny. This is Annie McCubbin signing off from why Smart Women See you later. This episode was produced by Harrison Hess. It was executive produced and written by me, annie McCubbin.
