Why Smart Women Podcast
Welcome to the Why Smart Women Podcast, hosted by Annie McCubbin. We explore why women sometimes make the wrong choices and offer insightful guidance for better, informed decisions. Through engaging discussions, interviews, and real-life stories, we empower women to harness their intelligence, question their instincts, and navigate life's complexities with confidence. Join us each week to uncover the secrets of smarter decision-making and celebrate the brilliance of women everywhere.
Why Smart Women Podcast
Ghost Busting with Ben Radford. Pt.2
Ben Radford pulls back the curtain on ghost hunting and psychic phenomena with the perfect blend of skepticism and compassion. We explore the fascinating psychology behind paranormal beliefs, revealing how these convictions often become deeply intertwined with personal identity.
🎙️Ben's Podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/squaring-the-strange/id1226273233
🙋♀️ Meet with Annie - go.oncehub.com/AnnieMcCubbin
I was attacked by a ghost and I'm like this is interesting. I mean I've investigated many, many hauntings and stuff. I it's rare that someone actually comes to me and flat out says they've been attacked by a ghost.
Speaker 2:You are listening to the why Smart Women podcast, the podcast that helps smart women work out why we repeatedly make the wrong decisions and how to make better ones. From relationships, career choices, finances, to faux fur jackets and kale smoothies. Every moment of every day, we're making decisions. Let's make them good ones. I'm your host, annie McCubbin, and, as a woman of a certain age, I've made my own share of really bad decisions. Not my husband, I don't mean him, though. I did go through some shockers to find him and I wish this podcast had been around to save me from myself. This podcast will give you insights into the working of your own brain, which will blow your mind. I acknowledge the traditional owners of the land in which I'm recording and you are listening on this day. Always was, always will be Aboriginal land. This is a continuation of my chat with Ben Radford, skeptic and paranormal investigator. If you've just joined me, you can go back to the prior episode and listen to part one.
Speaker 1:Enjoy. Oh it's. I dated a psychic one time. I can tell you about that later but I want to hear that um. So I'll tell you the other story then, if you want to circle back to it. So um. So one thing I've noticed is that um is that in dealing with with psychics, specifically over the years, they get very defensive when I try and sort of question their claims, and part of that's normal right. Nobody likes to be shown up, no one likes to be shown a fool.
Speaker 1:Nobody likes to be proven wrong, but in their cases, part of the reason that they are so, that their beliefs are so resilient, is is the, what you just mentioned, which is it's part of their identity, right? So I, I remember me, I did a just many investigations. I did one in in ontario, canada, many years back, and there were a couple psychics who were on this ghost hunting team and I was talking to them. Just there were nice women, probably early 40s, just sort of ordinary, you know, they do their own thing, but what made them special was that they believed that they were psychic and they claimed to be psychic and they, they told their friends they were psychic and they held readings for their friends and so on.
Speaker 1:And it was so interesting talking to them because I recognized that that so much of that, their identity, their self-identity, was wrapped up in in this belief that they were special, they had this gift, um, and they could help, uh, and they were sincere. I mean, I believe, I, I'm, I'm absolutely certain they truly believed it, um, but it was but the one of the one of the factors of that is that when you gently challenge someone or question them at all, to my mind I'm I'm questioning a claim. Yeah, this is a personal attack.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm not mad at you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't. I don't think you're stupid, I'm not calling you crazy. You yeah, I don't. I don't think you're stupid, I'm not calling you crazy, I'm saying that. You're saying, I'm saying that when you claim to talk to ghosts, or when you claim to predict the future, I'm suggesting to you that there's not good evidence for that. Uh, but to them they're like what's?
Speaker 2:you're calling me a liar like yep, straight to it, straight to it, right, yeah, it's that. Look up. We run um. You might have met my husband, david, at the at the conference he was running the tech and at the skeptics conference and um david and I run training programs in critical thinking, leadership and um.
Speaker 2:One of the things is that we talk about giving and receiving feedback and I always say to them nobody wants feedback, it's bullshit. Nobody wants it unless the feedback is you're incredibly awesome and everything you do is totally right. Nobody wants feedback because, of course, you know you don't want your sense of self punctured right. So we have to prepare ourselves emotionally to get feedback. We have to be big enough and intelligent enough and emotionally stable enough to go okay, give it to me. I hear that and I'm going to do something to actually ameliorate it.
Speaker 2:But somebody that's in that position, that's saying that they're a psychic course, there's a fragility to that, isn't there, it's like, and it may be the only thing about them that is special or they consider to be special, and also they want to be seen to be the helper. You know, this happened to you in a past life. Past life ones are just astonishing, right. They're just astonishing that people actually you know, sit there and then suddenly they go back and they were and not got to tell you about past lives. Nobody was ever a potato farmer, right? Everyone was special, right, they were Napoleon.
Speaker 2:Cleopatra right, she's been reincarnated about 5 million times. So funny, it's so funny.
Speaker 1:So you're absolutely right, and I think I mean just to circle back for a second to politics, but I mean, I think that's one of the that's one of the biggest. One of the biggest failures of Trump as a president Is that he surrounds himself with yes man, he does not, he does not want, he does not, he doesn't want feedback. And here's the problem is that if you truly believe that you're always right and Trump says that I mean he's, he explicitly say he's believe that you're always right and Trump says that I mean he explicitly says he's always said he's always right If that's really your position in life that anything bad that happens to you is not your own fault, it's because the mean Democrats or the deep state or someone's out to get you right Nothing is ever your fault Then there's no incentive to your fault, then there's no incentive to change things.
Speaker 1:There's no incentive to improve, because yeah, because you, you don't want feedback because you're doing everything perfectly, so there's any feedback is irrelevant. Yeah, and and and, it's just. It's just one of the lessons that we get from critical thinking that is so wholly absent in the current.
Speaker 2:Totally, 100% absent. And do you think? I mean, I've often thought of this. Do you think? I know that David and I often talk about the fact that conservatism so when I say conservative in my, I'm talking right wing, because I know you call your left-wing liberals.
Speaker 1:That's right, yeah they're sort of yeah, they're, it's, it's. Yeah, there's liberal, liberals and progressives, democrats, republicans, blue and red.
Speaker 2:They're sort of different shades there, but yes well see, we call our right wing a conservative party, is the liberal party well, to be fair, you guys are backwards. We don't know what we're doing.
Speaker 1:You're ahead of us by like 18 hours. It's crazy. I still don't understand that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're incredibly ahead. So the thing about, in our view, that conservative thinking is it is simpler. It's a simpler premise. You know, you work hard, you do the right thing, you pull yourself up by your bootstraps and get on with your life, whereas I think left you know sort of leftist is a more complex proposition, because I might be someone who can actually get on with it, because my mental health is okay and I come from a middle-class family and I've got support around me, you know. So somebody who comes from a family that was, you know, raised by two heroin addicts is not going to have the same start.
Speaker 2:So it's just interesting the relevance of critical thinking and how disinterested most people are in understanding what it is. I mean, I've written two books on it, um, aimed at women, mainly because, to your point, um, a lot of the sort of the scammy stuff is is positioned to women, isn't it? It's they're more vulnerable to it, um, but it's amazing how often someone will say what's your book about? And I'll say critical thinking, and they'll go what is that? And I'm like far out, far out, you don't know what that?
Speaker 2:is that's like wow, it's so essential. So tell me about your girlfriend. That was the psychic, because that's nuts.
Speaker 1:Wow, there's quite a transition there, good job, I'm good.
Speaker 2:I'm good, very quick segue yeah.
Speaker 1:So yeah, so I briefly dated a psychic and basically what happened was that I had there was a local independent newspaper here in Albuquerque, where I live the land of Breaking Bad and Bugs Bunny, for those who don't know and I had written a column for a local newspaper that was basically debunking psychics. There was a local radio psychic and I said this is what this guy is doing. He's using cold reading. I sort of outlined all the tricks he was using just to educate people. I never met the guy I have nothing against him, but I know what he's doing because I've researched this, so I don't think much about it.
Speaker 1:Until I get an email about a week later, after it was published, from someone out of the blue Her name is Nicole and she said well, I read your piece in the Alibi newspaper and I think you're full of shit. I was like, okay, I get, I get five of these a week. What? Why? Why do you specifically think I'm full of shit? And she says well, it's because, um, the problem is that you just haven't met any psychics and I'm I'm a psychic. So I said okay.
Speaker 1:So I said, well, um, you know, I I could have taken offense to it. I could have said bugger off. But I said all right. So all right, you've engaged, you've written me a piece of hate mail, I'm going to turn another cheek. And I said, well, tell you what, I'd like to meet with you. So we met at a pizza shop in my hometown, not too far from where I am now, and I showed up and it was interesting. So she was red haired, mid thirties kind of stocky, and she had her hair was very I'm bald, for those who can't see me so she had very Voluminous Voluminous, I think, but I think she was trying to intimidate me with her hair did she?
Speaker 2:did she psychically know that you were bald?
Speaker 1:I, I, I was like you're right, she's trying to pull that over on me. So so we, we, so we had a very cordial lunch and I met her and we were chatting and and I was, I was sincerely interested. I said, well, you know you, I understand you, you're psychic, or you know, you think you're psychic, I tried to sort of.
Speaker 1:I said, well, you know. And I said you know well, how does that work. And and and I said, well, for example, when you, when you hear. So she told me that you know she hears. She hears visions and information. I said, well, when you hear it, do you hear it in your head or is it in your ears? So, for example, if I were to take a microphone and put it in your ear and again, I'm totally serious, I'm not making fun of her, I'm genuinely curious and she thought about it for a second, she said no, it's kind of in the back of my head.
Speaker 1:And anyways, we chatted for about a half hour or something and it was interesting because I think she was expecting me to be this obnoxious, dismissive asshole and I was a guy who was sincerely interested. Yeah, I was like this is kind of interesting. I don't know whether you're psychic or not, I don't think so, but I don't know. And so she saw me actually being diplomatic and respectful. So I said, well, I said you know, so it was a, it was a lunch date, it was a lunch. And then she's like well, you know. And as I left, just like, well, you know, we should get together, get some time maybe, maybe to to test this long story short.
Speaker 2:Uh, we ended up dating for about three months oh man, that's fantastic, that's and and so did you ever put in like what happened nothing?
Speaker 1:well, um, I'm not sure how. If you really want the end of the story, I'll tell you. You can cut it out later if you want, but basically so we'd been dating for a couple months, as I said, and I had already arranged to go on a cruise with an ex-girlfriend.
Speaker 2:You've got a lot of ex-girlfriends. I'd just like to say that that's the third one you've mentioned.
Speaker 1:This is not part of the story. I'm going with this Go on Is that and again I've been up front with this We'd only dated a little bit and we'd already anyway. So I said, just so you know, this cruise isn't planned for six months.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:We're going on this cruise and, yes, my ex-girlfriend is going with me and her face sort of got a little bit stony and she's like, well, you know whatever. So I went on the cruise and then I got back and so we had dinner I think it was a couple days after I got back and so she was, you know, polite and everything and in the middle of dinner she says there's a pause. She took a sip of wine and she said, um, so what happened on the cruise? And you know, I figured I could guess where she was going with this didn't she know?
Speaker 1:yeah, she's psychic anyway exactly, thank you, that was my. That. That's exactly I'm like. Why do I have to tell you? I could guess where she was going with this. Well, didn't she know, because she's a psychic? Anyway, exactly Thank you, that was my. That's exactly I'm like. Why do I have to tell you, don't you know what?
Speaker 2:happened on the cruise.
Speaker 1:Don't you know, she didn't, and she was not happy with what happened on the cruise. It did not. It didn't end badly, but it just sort of like Fizzled yes, badly, but it just sort of like fizzled, yes, yes, and and and to your point, I had sort of thought, well, look, if you're really psychic, I you should know, and, furthermore, you should have known before I even went on the cruise.
Speaker 2:but whatever, but isn't that the thing? And it's interesting because I'm I'm talking to susan gerbic, um, actually I love susan, I love Susan, and so of course she's going to be talking a lot about the grief, vampires and psychics.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love that, but it always amazes me how, what a psychic, or someone who proclaims to be psychic, what they can and what they actually can't predict and any of the prosaic day-to-day stuff like well, couldn't you see, didn't you know what was going on in the cruise just apparently doesn't hit the radar. It's classic, classic.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's remarkable. And of course you know, our good friend Richard Saunders did the Great Psychic Prediction Project and he analysed enormous. I forgot just thousands and thousands, thousands and thousands, yeah.
Speaker 1:And did an amazing job. And if people aren't familiar with Richard's stuff, check it out. And I think it's so important because it's so easy for the average person to sort of dismiss psychics as being too silly to investigate or this or that, but the fact of the matter is that many people absolutely believe in psychics, 100%. They do and they will make here's the key here they will make important life decisions based on that.
Speaker 1:Yep, that's right and that is something that should not be ignored. This is not just palm reading for $10 on the boardwalk. Some of it is, but a lot of it is people giving information that they frankly don't. There's no evidence. It's real and people in some cases they're flat-out scams and there's lots of long cons and people who you know that they pull it. You know a Romney gypsy trick where they, you know they say oh you're, are you having a bad luck streak? Oh, it's because there's a curse on you. I know who it is, but thankfully I have the ability to to reverse the curse. I'm gonna need $10,000 you'll get it back, of course, but I just need it to to perform a ritual and you know what happens after that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, just if I can give myself a quick plug. In my second book I wrote a character who things kept going wrong in the flats that the lead character lives in, and so a psychic came in and said I can remove the curse. The whole thing was about a curse. And who believes that and who doesn't believe that? It's very, very interesting, isn't it that where the belief comes from, how sustained the belief is, how, how easy or difficult it is to actually, as to your point, to actually get into someone's head and go. You really need to look at the evidence for this. You need to look at it because, of course, we use confirmation bias, don't we? I'll get into that with susan about why it is that psychics, um, are so successful. Because, of course, people. It's it's motivated reasoning. I'll remember the one thing, right, that was accurate, and the rest of the dross will just go out of my consciousness. So before we wrap up, can you just tell me your favourite ghost hunting story?
Speaker 2:Ooh, on the spot, my favourite ghost hunting story, or anyone that sits, Because I know you told a fantastic one at the Skeptics Conference where you went into a house. I remember it was really cool. Do you remember that it's gone?
Speaker 1:from your consciousness.
Speaker 2:It's floated off hasn't it which one was that, it was a whole lot of you and there was a house and everyone was doing some sort of ghost investigation.
Speaker 1:Oh, yes, yes, the behind the scenes on the Ghost Sending TV show. So I will give you. There's another one. I wrote about this in one of my books and it's kind of a complicated story, but also or I'll quickly summarize it, basically I was living in Buffalo, new York, at the time, which is where my magazine is based, and I have since moved back to New Mexico.
Speaker 1:But I was at my desk one day and I got a call from a woman near who lived nearby a place called Lackawanna, which is about 30 minutes outside of Buffalo, and she asked for my help and I said, well, how can I help you? And she says, well, there's an evil spirit in my house. Fair enough, and well and like Okay. And so I said, okay, well, I was actually, you know, I was editing a magazine, I was not investigator mood, I got a cup of coffee and this is the last thing I was expecting at, you know, 10 o'clock on a Tuesday. But she, I said, you know, I'm always game to investigate, I'm keen to do it, you know, this is what I love to do. So I said, okay, fine. So I said, well, tell me about it.
Speaker 1:So I met with her and her husband and she said well, I said why do you think your house is haunted? And I put it again, not in a challenging way, I wasn't like that's stupid. I said you called me. Why do you give me your explanation? What do you think is going on? And she says, well, there had been a couple things going on around the house, things they couldn't explain, and they tried to do their own investigation. They had taken a couple photographs. Basically, they had used ghost hunting TV shows as a template, which is bad idea. Please don't do that. They don't know what they're doing. But they were both fans of the ghost hunters TV shows and they said well, I guess this is how we investigate ghosts, because that's what they saw on tv. And they did this half-assed, half-baked investigation which did nothing but just further their, their belief. Uh. And then they did something which they also shouldn't do, which is, they called, in, a psychic always good you can guess what.
Speaker 1:You can guess what the psychic told.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there was an evil spirit in the house and it had been trapped there for 30 years and they died in the house and it was a murder. Is that right? Exactly, Annie, you're a psychic, I'm psychic, you know this story. Yes, you're a psychic.
Speaker 1:Yep. So, and of course this is just pissing me off because once again the psychic who these people turned to for help made the situation worse and gave them misinformation and basically convinced them that it was in fact an evil spirit in their house. Anyway, I'll sort of skip over the investigation. Basically, I went through each of their pieces of evidence.
Speaker 2:And what was it?
Speaker 1:Things moving, or what was it well, so, so there were a couple things, so I'll give you one quick. There are two examples. So, uh, one was, um, uh, they had uh taken a, an audio recorder and they'd placed it upstairs this was a split level uh home. So there was a father, uh, a mother, and then a young daughter who I think was about three or so, and they were. So this happened between Thanksgiving and Christmas, and they were so frightened, partly by their experiences and partly by the psychic who told, who wrongly told them their house was haunted. They were afraid to sleep in their own home at night. They were sleeping in their car. They were sleeping with friends because they were so scared in their own home at night they were sleeping in their car. They were sleeping with friends because they were so scared.
Speaker 2:The noises because of noises.
Speaker 1:Right. So what they did was they took a tape recorder, and it was actually a cassette tape. This was some years ago, when these things were still around, and this is how old I am yeah right.
Speaker 1:And they put it on the top of the stairs and they recorded it and then they basically I think they left the house and then they came back and then when they played it and they turned it all the way up they heard voices murmuring. So they present this tape to me and I can probably figure out what it is anyway. So just to give one example. So I listened to the tape and I'm guess I can probably figure out what it is anyway. So I'll just to give one example. So I listened to the tape and I said, well, are you sure that this wasn't just ambient sounds? You live, there's houses all around.
Speaker 1:There's a there's a street right, and they said no, no, that that's not, that can't be right, and said okay, fine. So I took that exact same tape recorder and a different tape. I placed it in the exact same place because I asked them where was this. I took a photograph of it and then I asked the wife to stay downstairs with the kid and the, the. The father and I casually walked out into the, into the front yard, by his car was, and we spoke at normal levels. So how's things going? You know, are you still having you know experiences this and that, this, and you still having you know experiences this and that, this and that, just sort of you know casual conversation? You know any changes, this and that? And then we went back. You can guess where this is going.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I can.
Speaker 1:We went back up to the. I rewound it and, sure enough, after they had assured me that there's no way that that videotape could, that audio tape could have recorded ambient sounds, Sure enough they recorded ambient sounds.
Speaker 2:And it sounded like voices, right.
Speaker 1:It sounded like voices and we knew for a fact that was us because and again, I wasn't yelling, it was just casual conversation I said, look, this is almost certainly a doger or anyway. So that's an example anyway. So the reason this is my favorite story, yeah, is that, uh, I had solved most of the most of the different uh experiences. So anyway, if anyone's interested in in this case, it's written up in my book, scientific paranormal investigation, it's like chapter seven and we will put that in the link.
Speaker 2:We'll put that in the show notes, your book and people can read the whole thing I it.
Speaker 1:It's a cool book anyway. So who aren't going with this? And part of the reason is I. I like the story is that number one.
Speaker 1:It was a case where I was actually able to help the people I was. I was the skeptic, but I was going in there and I put in the time. I went there nights and weekends. I was not getting paid for this, I was there to help them out and anyway. So I talked to them.
Speaker 1:I think I spent about a week and a half there and the guy said okay, well, you've explained most of the things. I agree that most of the things that we thought were ghosts aren't actually ghosts. He said, but there's one thing that you're not going to be able to explain and of course I'm like do tell. And uh, and I said what exactly is it? He said well, I was attacked by a ghost. And I'm like this is interesting. I mean, I've investigated many, many hauntings and stuff.
Speaker 1:I it's rare that someone actually comes to me and flat out says they've been attacked by a ghost, but I don't know. So I said, well, what exactly? What do you mean? Let's parse this out. When you say attacked by a ghost, what exactly do you mean? He says well, uh, he said that, so he has sleep apnea. Uh, he was a big heavy guy, he was a, he was a machine, he worked at a auto plant. In fact, um and uh and he, uh, he, uh. His wife and daughter had slept separately, so he was by himself on a cot not a full-size bed, but a cot up up in, up in upstairs what do you mean?
Speaker 2:a cot, because a cot in australia is a thing you put a baby in with sides on it yeah, it's more of a like a pull out bed, got it like a.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it's. It's not like a full-size sturdy bed, but sort of a good a metal. Yeah, so, um, and he said well, what? I said, what exactly happened? He said, well, there's no.
Speaker 1:You know, I was by myself, but as I was going to sleep, the ghost kicked my bed and he said again my wife and daughter were downstairs because I have sleep apnea, because I snore loudly and she couldn't, and, plus, they were, of course, frightened. And he said I was just laying in bed and as I was drifting to sleep, the whole bed shook. And he said this happened a couple different times and it scared the hell out of him. He was like there's no explanation. There's no one else around, I'm alone in the room, what's going on? It must be a ghost and that was one of the sort of the key, one of the key mysteries of this case and I didn't know what to make of it because you know it already happened. I mean, I'm not going to stake it, I'm not going to spend the night in his room waiting for it Sitting in the corner.
Speaker 1:I guess I could, but unfortunately I didn't get onto that. But as it happened, that very night or actually the second night of my investigation, because again this happened between thanksgiving, and and uh and christmas I was over at a friend's house and we were just making casual conversation, um, and it was my girlfriend's friends, and they said well, you know, so you know, we're just catching up. You know how things are, the factory, how things that and and uh, her, her friend's husband, was a police officer and he's talking about some cases he's working on. And they asked me what I'm doing. And I said well, since you asked, I'm investigating a haunted house down the road. I said but there's one thing I can't. So I said maybe you guys can help me figure it out, because I'm kind of stumped on it.
Speaker 1:And my girlfriend's friend, she says well, it sounds like restless leg syndrome, yep. And I said well, what do you mean? And so she says well, you know, john, when he's going to sleep in the bed, his legs shake, his legs twitches, yeah, and that hadn't crossed my mind. And what happened in the years afterwards? Certainly here in America? Suddenly we're getting a bunch of advertisements on TV for RLS Yep yeah.
Speaker 1:My husband's had it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but at the time this was, I mean, I'm not saying this was an unknown condition, but it wasn't really, wasn't really. Yeah, I didn't see any ads for it, it was sort of unknown and I'm like, oh, my God, that's what that is. And so I did some research on RLS and it happens, especially happens with people who have sleep apnea. Yep, it happens as you're going to sleep.
Speaker 2:Yeah, on the brink of sleep, right on the brink of sleep. 100% yeah, and I realized.
Speaker 1:that was the explanation, that was what he thought. That was what he thought.
Speaker 2:That was why he thought he's alone in his room as he's going to sleep, he feels a kick on the bed.
Speaker 1:He doesn't realize he's doing it. No, that's right, and he naturally assumes that it's some evil spirit in the house. And did you tell him that? I did, and it was interesting, because a lot of times when I solve mysteries, they don't want to hear it. But in this case, keep in mind, this was scaring them.
Speaker 2:It was genuinely frightening.
Speaker 1:And so what I did was and I'm kind of proud of myself for the way I handled it I went through each piece of evidence they had given me. I said here's this photograph. I duplicated it. This is not a evil, demonic face in a window. This is, this is a reflection. Here you go yeah here.
Speaker 1:You know, here's we. We went through the audio tape which you were sure must be ghosts, but in fact it was me and tony outside talking about normal things. So I went through piece by piece by piece and again, I didn't come in gangbusters, I'm Mr Know-it-all skeptic. You guys are full of shit. You're crazy. I went in there saying this is an interesting mystery, I don't know. Help me solve this. So I engaged them into it and I explained it piece by piece and I recognized that because of their background. So they were. They were roman catholic and they had brought in a.
Speaker 2:You can maybe see where we're going with this they had brought in a priest, yeah, to do an exorcism right and so spinning head with green vomit right fortunately, there was no green vomit, no masturbation that I saw, uh, which is probably just as well, um and and.
Speaker 1:But here's the thing is, is I recognized that if I told them there was never a ghost here, they might not believe me. So so so, because even though I had pretty much conclusively shown them at one point, they were pretty sure there was one. So here's what I said. I said I don't think there was a ghost here. If there was, it is now gone, and by doing so I left open the, the, the door right. So I said, I said you know, I don't think there's anything supernatural here, I don't think there ever was. But if you believe that there was, I'm, I will grant you that belief. But let's agree that's no longer here, perfect, and that they, they got relieved and they're like yes, it's over and um it didn't puncture their identity right no, and, and I I crafted it carefully so that it wouldn't smart smart and I helped them out, and that's a case I'm proud of.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I think. Well, of course, that's what they. It's definitely what they say about dealing with conspiracy theories and conspiracy theorists is to find the commonality. There's no point going in with all guns blazing going. You're a knob if you believe this, and I'm really intelligent and I'm smart because all you're doing is just widening the divide, right yeah, it's counterproductive.
Speaker 1:Um, you know, mick west has an excellent book called escaping the rabbit hole. Uh, he wrote a couple years back and he talks about, uh, the the psychology of helping people out of conspiracy thinking and, exactly as you said, part of the idea is to build bridges right instead of going into it, guns blazing. And you're all stupid assholes and I'm the smart ass skeptic.
Speaker 1:Uh, you go in there saying look, I you I don't know everything, help me figure this out and when you engage them, when you show them respect even if they know that you're a skeptic, even if they know that you're probably going to find some explanation for it if you show them respect, that builds bridges and that can sort of help bring people together. I mean this isn't like a kumbaya moment, but it's a case of where these people needed help. They called me. I didn't call them. They called me, uh, and they saw that I was taking time out of my again night and weekends to go to their house. I wasn't getting paid. I wasn't. I later turned it. I later wrote a chapter about it, with their permission, but I mean, this was not the to me. There was me trying to help somebody else out as I would anybody.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's showing care, it's showing compassion and it's coming from a non-judgmental place, and I think that's really hard sometimes, isn't it? Because you just want to slap people around the head and go. What are you thinking?
Speaker 2:When I was it reminded me that when I was in my early 20s I did every Australian girl. What we do is we go on European odysseys because it's so far here. We never just go for like three weeks or two weeks, we just go and live overseas. And I'd gone. I was about 22, and I'd gone to Europe and I'd washed up on this little Greek island called Patmos and I'd run out of money and my parents were really, really sick of sending me money and rescuing me right, and I was too embarrassed to ask again. So I set myself up down in the, in one of those squares on this island and said that I was an Australian psychic and fortunately for me, I did not see that coming.
Speaker 2:My first customer was this girl. I didn't know a thing, I knew I wasn't. I didn't know anything, but I'm good with people and I always knew I was good with people. And anyway, she showed me her palm and I said are you a twin? She was, she was a twin.
Speaker 1:Wow, well done. Thank you, you played the. You know, you just don't know. Oh my God, are you a twin?
Speaker 2:Oh, my God, Are you a twin anyway.
Speaker 2:She's like oh my God, I am, I am, I'm a twin. Oh my God, you're like some sort of miracle. It was quite a bad Greek accent, I apologize for that. Anyway, so I don't know. I think I don't know anything, but I was reading a palm and there's two lines across. I said that anyway. Because of that and because it was such a small community, I had days and days of customers coming to me and I know, and I made, I only said nice things. I just said nice things to them, everything was going to be lovely and they'd have a good life. And then I made some money, not enough actually to fly home, but just enough to drink some more Retsina, which can.
Speaker 1:I say, oh, that's all you did, right.
Speaker 2:Can I say at this point Retsina, which is Greek wine. It tastes like Dettol and to this day I've never been able to bear it. Anyway, I just made enough. I minned about on this island for quite a few weeks and then eventually fessed up to my dad. I said can you please just fly me home? He said, yes, all right, anne, and home I went. But I think that was just that luck of the draw, right.
Speaker 2:And it's the same with anybody that you nail one and confirmation bias hits in and it's motivated reasoning. We that you know you nail one and confirmation bias hits in and it's motivated reasoning. We want to believe, don't we, that there's an answer out there.
Speaker 1:I'll tell you a quick story. I had a similar case. I'm I was in high school, um near where I am now, and I was in a in a shop class and there were there were groups of tables. There were four people at a table and there was this one guy I don't remember his name, we called him drac, like dracula, because he had sort of uh, incisors. And one day, just out of the blue, with no, no, just out of the blue, I turned to him and I looked him dead in the eye and we didn't know each other very well. We were, you know, classmates. We didn't, we didn't hang out, but we, you know, we knew each other.
Speaker 1:I said I just, I don't know where. I said I better know your mom's middle name. And he said no, you don't. I said yeah, I do. He said what is it? I said it's ann, and the blood drained from his face. He, you would think I just, you know, got a taint with a cattle prod. He was just like he was just, he was apoplectic and he visibly stiffened. He's like how did you know that? Do you know my mom? I almost did a joke there, but no, and he's like how did you know that? And he was freaking out, um, and I just smiled and he never sat next to me for the rest of the semester, uh, but, as you can imagine, I just I looked it up and anne is the most common female middle name yeah uh, and I just happened to get it and to this day right.
Speaker 1:So 40 years later, 30 years later, he's probably still telling you about the kid in in high school shop class who, dead out of nowhere, told him his mom's name and there's no way I could have known it dead out of nowhere and he, and if he, ever finds out what you do now, right, you're right, did you trying to debunk yourself? Right, Sorry Drac, Sorry Drac.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's so funny. It's so funny. Well, ben, we have talked for a long time and it has been absolutely wonderful. I thank you so much for your time, because you probably got to go and check out a ghost somewhere, do you?
Speaker 1:A little bit. I've always got projects going on. I'm making a documentary, I'm writing an article, uh, mirrored things, but I just I was so delighted to get your message. I remembered you, of course, from from the, the australian skeptics, and uh, I've, I've. You know, I made some such great friends, you know know, tim and Lara and Richard and the gang there.
Speaker 2:They're awesome, aren't they?
Speaker 1:And it was just so much fun and I thank you so much for inviting me. This has been a delight.
Speaker 2:Oh, my absolute pleasure, and I will put Squaring the Strange in the show notes so people can listen to your podcast and maybe at some other point in the future you might come back on and tell me more stories.
Speaker 1:I would be delighted to.
Speaker 2:And if you ever get a decent government, I will come over to America and say hello.
Speaker 1:Any time now, the sooner the better, the sooner the better, believe me Okay okay, so lovely to talk.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much, ben.
Speaker 1:Thank you.
Speaker 2:See you later, thank you. And thank you so much, smart women, for tuning in. See you later, thank you. And thank you so much, smart women, for tuning in. See you next week. Thanks for tuning into why smart women with me.
Speaker 2:Annie McCubbin, I hope today's episode has ignited your curiosity and left you feeling inspired by my anti motivational style. Join me next time as we continue to unravel the fascinating layers of our brains and develop ways to sort out the fact from the fiction and the over 6,000 thoughts we have in the course of every day. Remember, intelligence isn't enough. You can be as smart as paint, but it's not just about what you know, it's about how you think. And in all this talk of whether or not you can trust your gut, if you ever feel unsafe, whether it's in the street, at work, car park, in a bar or in your own home, please, please, respect that gut feeling.
Speaker 2:Staying safe needs to be our primary objective. We can build better lives, but we have to stay safe to do that. And don't forget to subscribe, rate and review the podcast and share it with your fellow smart women and allies. Together, we're hopefully reshaping the narrative around women and making better decisions. So until next time. Stay sharp, stay savvy and keep your critical thinking hat shiny. This is Annie McCubbin signing off from why Smart Women See you later. This episode was produced by Harrison Hess. It was executive produced and written by me, annie McCubbin.
