Why Smart Women Podcast
Welcome to the Why Smart Women Podcast, hosted by Annie McCubbin. We explore why women sometimes make the wrong choices and offer insightful guidance for better, informed decisions. Through engaging discussions, interviews, and real-life stories, we empower women to harness their intelligence, question their instincts, and navigate life's complexities with confidence. Join us each week to uncover the secrets of smarter decision-making and celebrate the brilliance of women everywhere.
Why Smart Women Podcast
Coldplay Kisscam - The end of forgiveness?
Ever noticed how women are constantly encouraged to be forgiving, grateful, and blessed, regardless of how poorly they're treated? This episode dives straight into the dark side of forgiveness.
The conversation kicks off with a laugh about "novel-induced vagueness" (forgetting dogs in cars and wearing mismatched shoes), but quickly turns to something more profound after discussing the viral Coldplay concert Kiss Cam scandal.
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If I was caught on KissCam you'd be like, oh, what have I done that's contributed to?
Speaker 1:that.
Speaker 2:If you were caught, I'd be packing your bag and closing down your side of the bank account or whatever you said.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, fair enough, too Fair enough.
Speaker 2:You are listening to the why Smart Women podcast, the podcast that helps smart women work out why we repeatedly make the wrong decisions and how to make better ones. From relationships, career choices, finances, to faux fur, jackets and kale smoothies. Every moment of every day, we're making decisions. Let's make them good ones. I'm your host, annie McCubbin, and, as a woman of a certain age, I've made my own share of really bad decisions. Not my husband, I don't mean him, though I did go through some shockers to find him, and I wish this podcast had been around to save me from myself. This podcast will give you insights into the working of your own brain, which will blow your mind. I acknowledge the traditional owners of the land in which I'm recording and you are listening on this day. Always was, always will be Aboriginal land. Well, hello, smart women, and welcome back to the why Smart Women podcast.
Speaker 2:Today is Wednesday, the 23rd of July, and, as usual, I am broadcasting from the northern beaches in Sydney, new South Wales, australia. It's not actually that nice a day. It's a bit cloudy outside, but that's totally fine, and I'm here with David and Harry, our producer, and the two dogs. How are you? Did I say, david? I'm a bit vague today. I'll explain to you why in a minute.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, no, you did introduce me. Did you want the dogs to say hello, or just me? Just you?
Speaker 2:Okay, I'll tell you, before we start, what I actually wanted to talk about. I've just got to describe to you what's happened to me over the last 24 hours. So three things that were worrying, worrisome I thought okay so, number one, I took rider with me to the gym yesterday. Fine, went to the gym, went and got a coffee. Afterwards I was tootling around the car. He's in the back seat. I get home. As you know, the car park is underneath our building, so I get home.
Speaker 1:Well, I know that Not everybody knows that I'm not explaining to the people listening. I know, you know it, you live here, I'm not explaining that to you.
Speaker 2:But, there's people that I don't live with that are listening.
Speaker 1:Okay, right, you took the dog to the gym. Right, you drove home. I've gone over that bit already. I drove home and you drove into the car park.
Speaker 2:I drove into the car park which is underneath the building. It's a gripping story already. No wait for it, wait for it, wait for it. So then I get out, have the dog with me.
Speaker 1:You left the dog in the car. You forgot the dog In the car, okay, I totally forgot the dog.
Speaker 2:So then I was in a blind panic and then I ran back down the corridor, got into the lift, pressed the button, went down the lift and then there was somebody in the lift and I was trying to explain to him it's only a two-floor trip what I'd done, and then he starts to tell me his story about he did something vague and I'm like I haven't got time to listen to this. So the lift door opens, I run out, I go down the escalator, I get to the car and the dog is literally just sitting in the back seat going da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da da so he's not phased well, he would only probably been four minutes, but no, he wasn't phased.
Speaker 2:I, however, was highly apologetic. I said to him I'm so sorry, I'm really sorry yes, did he say, that's all right? He said that's right. Can I have an extra treat?
Speaker 1:And did you give him one?
Speaker 2:I said I'm surprised he could speak because he's a dog. Yeah, I did. I gave him a treat. He was really sooky last night.
Speaker 1:So you were a bit distracted yesterday morning.
Speaker 2:Oh no, listen, no, no, it gets worse. Is that the point of the story? No, no, no. I open up my phone and reorder a card I'd lost, and order the wrong card, Completely the wrong card.
Speaker 1:Right. Okay, that was the second card. A credit card, a credit card. Don't worry about the details. I ordered the wrong card.
Speaker 2:Then I get to the gym. I look down and on my right foot I've got a gym shoe and on my left foot I had a completely different shoe you're wearing odd shoes yeah, one, both black, but completely mismatched okay, and. I looked at my feet and I went oh my god like that. And then, everybody came over and looked and said what are you looking at? I said my feet and and then I thought I'm losing the plot. But I think this is my hope.
Speaker 1:Postmenopausal vagueness Don't refer to postmenopausal. Thank you, I'm sorry, I'm not normally that vague, you're not exactly, so there's something going wrong, don't say there's something going wrong. That's bad. No, I said something going on.
Speaker 2:This is my thought and I really hope it's bad.
Speaker 1:No, no, I said something going on.
Speaker 2:This is my thought, okay, and I really hope it's correct. I hope that the problem is is that I'm deep, deep in the process of writing my novel.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And I'm highly distracted because in my head all the time I'm thinking about the characters and what they might say to each other and plot points.
Speaker 1:Right, so this is novel-induced vagueness.
Speaker 2:Do you think, or do you think I'm losing it?
Speaker 1:I don't know. I'm brainstorming with you to find out the thing that's happening.
Speaker 2:It's not good, is it Well?
Speaker 1:I mean, you know that I understand vagueness.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I'm not ADD.
Speaker 1:So you keep saying Vagueness is a very familiar friend in my world.
Speaker 2:So you're ADHD and you forget things because you're distracted and deep diving into stuff.
Speaker 1:Right Like deep diving into stuff, right Like deep diving into, perhaps, the narrative that could be at the heart of my novel.
Speaker 2:So do you think it's just the same thing, that I'm just so in the novel, that I'm not where I am?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it's possible. I mean, from what we understand about the way that the mind works when you set yourself a big goal, even when you're not consciously thinking about it, we know that there are parts of the brain that are actually active, working away solving the problem, and that could be taking resources away from your capacity to stay on top of things like have I got the dog in the car, or which is the car that I should be reordering? So yeah, I think that's plausible. I think you're probably moving into a fairly intense period of novel writing.
Speaker 2:And yeah, maybe that's making you a bit vague.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry about the post-menopausal thing. Yeah, shut up.
Speaker 2:I know that that's mansplaining and gendered which is Well, I mean, I am sort of in that post-menopausal thing, but anyway, so that was quite bad.
Speaker 1:Are you feeling vague today?
Speaker 2:That happened this morning.
Speaker 1:This is what I'm telling you, yeah, but have you recovered from this morning's vagueness?
Speaker 2:I don't know, have I.
Speaker 1:We'll see.
Speaker 2:I mean I do my brain is. I do carry a whole lot of stuff in my brain all the time. Yeah, I did say to you this morning about four times make sure you take the rubbish around. I remember that.
Speaker 1:I was working on a novella, sorry, a small novel.
Speaker 2:I'll tell you why.
Speaker 1:A short-term novel.
Speaker 2:I'll tell you why it was important Because there was a corn cob in there, and if a dog swallows a corn cob, very bad and right ahead of it.
Speaker 1:You're always on the lookout, aren't you?
Speaker 2:Yeah for catastrophe, You're always on the lookout for something that's going to choke one of the dogs to death. Yeah, or someone will die of something.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, my brain is always on the lookout for the next catastrophe. That is the nature of my anxiety.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but it's not a. You wouldn't say that that was a big problem for you. I mean, most of the time you're pretty much on the board, on the board, on the ball, on the ball. Yeah, you're on the ball.
Speaker 2:With the vagueness thing, With the vagueness thing yeah, you're managing things. Oh yeah, yeah, I am, yeah, I am. I think I've got a pretty good functioning prefrontal cortex. But that, what did surprise me when I looked down and my shoes were odd.
Speaker 1:That's a good one. Was it dark when you got dressed?
Speaker 2:No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, perfectly light. Do you remember the moment of putting them on? Yeah, putting one on, and then I got distracted by something and then anyway. So that wasn't what I wanted to talk about today, but I thought it was pretty interesting, just in case you get very vague in the course of the conversation. So what I did want to talk about today was the notion of forgiveness.
Speaker 1:Forgiveness.
Speaker 2:Forgiveness and gratitude.
Speaker 1:Okay, notions, yeah, it's a notion. Forgiveness, isn't it something that you do? Something quite specific, not?
Speaker 2:just an idea.
Speaker 1:You're talking about the idea of it, the performative notion of forgiveness and gratitude.
Speaker 2:Am I.
Speaker 1:I don't know, I'm asking.
Speaker 2:Well, what I'm talking about is that there seems to be a strong encouragement for women to be forgiving and grateful.
Speaker 1:Right. What made you think about that?
Speaker 2:I'll tell you.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:So we may as well discuss the fact, because the rest of the world is of the CEO and his HR manager that were caught.
Speaker 1:Oh, the Coldplay kiss cam. At the Coldplay kiss cam. Aren't we jumping on the bandwagon here? Haven't we got anything original to talk?
Speaker 2:about no, but I have an original take.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:So that happened, and for anybody who's living under a rock, the C in what is it America Was it America.
Speaker 1:It was yes.
Speaker 1:Describe what happened while I look something up, please, oh well, you know, the C was there with his HR director and it was clear that they had an intimate relationship. When the KISS cam which is something that sometimes happens at large events they'll bring some of the members of the audience and they'll put them up on the big screen. And look, I can't believe I'm explaining this, everybody must have seen it A couple sort of locked in a loving embrace as they enjoy the concert, and as soon as they discover that they are on the Kiss Cam and all can see them, she ducks down. He ducks down. Yes, it was the CEO of the $1.5 billion software company and he was with his HR director, not his wife, and she was not with her husband.
Speaker 2:So that happened and of course, that has just gone viral, I think because people intuitively love a drama and there's something so dramatic about the whole thing. Anyway, I came across this formal statement from Megan Byron, who is the wife of Andrew Byron. Now I have no idea. I have tried to check the source of this. This could very well just be AI generated.
Speaker 1:It looks a little AI generated to me, but why would someone?
Speaker 2:do that? I don't know. But however this arose, I approve of the sentiment.
Speaker 1:We have a statement, because she's very unforgiving, isn't she?
Speaker 2:Yes, super unforgiving she's not happy. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So, this is the formal statement from Megan Byron, who is the wife soon to be not wife for now of Andrew Byron, and this is what she says. It has come to my attention, and apparently to the attention of half the internet, that my husband, Andrew Byron, has made certain choices, public ones, under stadium lights, during a Coldplay concert, a venue not typically associated with infidelity. But here we are. Let me be perfectly clear. I am not issuing this statement in defense, nor in heartbreak. I'm issuing it in power, in precision, in silk gloves and sharpened wit. I will not be engaging in performative forgiveness, nor am I interested in the optics of grace.
Speaker 2:What Andy has done is not just humiliating, it is banal, common, a man of ambition brought down by his own astonishing lack of imagination. I have retained counsel, I have reviewed holdings I have reallocated once was once ours into what is now very clearly mine. I'm not spiraling, I am ascending. And while Andy may have quoted Coldplay in his statement, I will simply say when the lights went out, I saw everything clearly. To those who expect tears, I don't cry for clowns. I schedule, I document, I rebuild, now as previously. I don't know if she wrote that, but somebody or something did and there is something so refreshingly honest, clear cut and completely lacking in, as she has put it, performative forgiveness that I really like it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, look, I mean, as she said, she's going to be precise, she's going to have what silk gloves.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's the bit that makes me suspicious. Silk gloves and sharpened wit Sounds a bit novel-y, but anyway, maybe she's really articulate.
Speaker 1:I don't know, it couldn't be a single incident.
Speaker 2:Correct, that's right.
Speaker 1:That would lead her to that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, if you did that, for instance.
Speaker 1:Oh goodness.
Speaker 2:Yeah, if you did that.
Speaker 1:What Go to a Coldplay concert.
Speaker 2:In odd shoes and then left the dog in the car while you were in there.
Speaker 1:Yes, I would assume you'd lost the plot. Yes, well, you know, my typical vagueness would be on display.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you probably wouldn't have noticed the camera and would have just I don't know just which would have been better. Yeah Right, if they'd just kept going and not noticed it, but they caused a huge ruckus by pulling attention to themselves. Back to your point. I doubt that it was an anomalous episode or incident.
Speaker 1:No, no no, no, no For Mrs Byron to move so quickly to. I've retained counsel, I've worked out what's mine, what's hers. I mean, it could be just the magnitude of the humiliation. You know that half the internet has been, you know, chortling about this.
Speaker 2:What could?
Speaker 1:be that she's moved so quickly and so.
Speaker 2:Well, she had apparently that night. She changed her name that night back to her maiden name.
Speaker 1:Right, well, she must have suspected something like that yeah, I mean that's.
Speaker 2:The interesting thing is because we know that motivated reasoning means that we can actually not, so we might suspect something. But motivated reasoning, that part of our brain which goes I don't want this to be true, so what, we can do and we know this to be true.
Speaker 2:So what we can do and we know this to be true, and I think women do it all the time, or probably we all do it, men do it too is we post-rationalize, so something will happen. He will go it wasn't what you think it is. And then, because the woman wants to believe it, because there is so much at stake to leave a marriage, so much at stake that she will then post-rationalize it yes, yeah, and go.
Speaker 1:that's right well, I believe him. I mean that's.
Speaker 2:And just you know not look at the red flags.
Speaker 1:There are some people who are overt about infidelity.
Speaker 2:You know what do we call them Polyamorous that is just a new word, for in the 70s and 80s people would just chuck their car keys in a bowl. That's right, and then pick them out and off they go. There's nothing I'd rather do than be with some random middle-aged man in some skanky bedroom who's picked my key? I can't tell you.
Speaker 1:just the hygiene factor, yes, besides that, oh god, anyway, sorry, I digress okay, um, human beings being human beings, that there is a, you know, a diversity of expectations and and demands and contracts that people make around you know, fidelity or otherwise. And I mean, I think part of the reason why the internet has completely caught alight about this is there's probably a whole bunch of people going. You know they got caught out. I hope I never get caught out, you know.
Speaker 2:Or are those suspicions I have at the back of my brain, where the person that's left at home? Are those suspicions that I keep trying to suppress, actually accurate? Obviously, the way women and men are socialized means they are more encouraged and more inclined to work towards forgiveness and gratitude than actually going hang on. This is not okay. I do not know of any man in my sphere that has ever done a gratitude meditation, have you?
Speaker 1:Variations on it.
Speaker 2:Like what.
Speaker 1:Well, look, I remember once upon a time, I think, I instituted a little ritual for the family. I probably got it from Oprah Winfrey, or something like that.
Speaker 2:Oh, we had to say it was great before we did the table. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't think that was a bad thing.
Speaker 1:I don't think it was a bad thing at all and I thought that that was a nice little sort of gratitude.
Speaker 2:You know, unfortunate reflection, gratitude in all itself as I have said before, is actually quite helpful in terms of having a really good perspective on your life. Yeah, If you are sort of churlish and dissatisfied and naturally looking towards what you don't have which I have also said we are naturally inclined to look to the negative. It's quite normal because that's how we stay safe. We are not naturally inclined to be positive.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:But if you are one of those people that is stuck in a loop whereby you only see what's wrong and what's what's not working, then actually doing a gratitude um reflection is not a bad thing. However, the way it is co-opted so that we end up with women that just take the most rubbish treatment and then go well, no, you know he doesn't swear at me and you know I've got food in the fridge. It's just a very low fucking bar.
Speaker 1:Yes, I'm grateful that he has most of his hair.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that Sorry.
Speaker 1:That's not what you were thinking about.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I'm grateful he has most of his hair. I mean, the thing is, if you are a woman and you fear being on your own which is understandable and normal to fear being on your own which is understandable and normal. To fear being on your own because it is a very, very vulnerable place to be, to not have a partner to walk through life with, I totally get that. But if you're in that situation and you sort of can't stand aside from that viewpoint, you are more likely to accept substandard treatment and attitude from a male partner and then post-rationalize it by saying well, you know he didn't mean it and I forgive him, because to forgive is what is it. To err is human, to forgive is divine.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Look at the way I said that. That's what they say. Who said that?
Speaker 1:To err is human, to forgive.
Speaker 2:Is divine.
Speaker 1:Divine. It's a bit, you know, it's a bit godly.
Speaker 2:Is it biblical?
Speaker 1:I don't know. To err is human? To forgive divine, divine, let's find out we better find out. Yeah, um if you know, please send annie a dm and let her know what that is let me know, but the problem being that if people are raised in an environment where gratitude and forgiveness are expected regardless of what the reality actually is, then it's going to yeah, it's. Then it's going to yeah, it's going to compel people to accept less than what they deserve in terms of the behaviour of other people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. It sort of gets enshrined. It just gets enshrined, this idea, doesn't it?
Speaker 1:How did you experience being inculcated in that way? How did you experience being told that you had to be grateful?
Speaker 2:Who told me that? Yeah, who told you that? Nobody told me that.
Speaker 1:No, but you were saying that women are.
Speaker 2:Well, it's in the zeitgeist, isn't it? In the zeitgeist, you know gratitude meditations, and you know to be grateful, to be, you know, grateful, blessed.
Speaker 1:But were you ever?
Speaker 2:told I'm so blessed.
Speaker 1:Were you told that? Who told you that you had to be grateful?
Speaker 2:Nobody, but it was the zeitgeist. We're just pausing for a minute to hear a word from our sponsor.
Speaker 1:The why Smart Women podcast is brought to you by KU, a boutique training, coaching and media production company. Aku spelt C-O-U-P is a decisive act of leadership, and decisive leadership requires critical thinking. So well done you for investing time to think about your thinking, if your leadership or relationships would benefit from some grounded and creative support. If you want team training or a conference presentation, reach out for a confidential one-on-one conversation using the link in the description or go to kuco. Can I take you to a moment this morning and I'm interested in your take.
Speaker 2:Sure, is it about the shoes of the dog.
Speaker 1:No, no, no, no, it was actually when I disappointed you this morning.
Speaker 2:Oh, is this about the bins? Yeah?
Speaker 1:that's right. When you left the house, you were saying could you please empty the bins Three?
Speaker 2:times I'd said it yes.
Speaker 1:I'd said it. I even called out into the garden and I was working on my novella and was surprised at how quickly you returned and that you actually returned with the dog.
Speaker 2:this time I'd been gone two hours.
Speaker 1:So there you were.
Speaker 2:I went to the doctor, you were back you didn't ask me how I went either.
Speaker 1:Okay, so I've been disappointing you terribly this morning.
Speaker 2:No, no, you haven't.
Speaker 1:No, I have, I have, I have. I disappointed you by not taking the rubbish bin. Ask me how I went to the doctor. How did you go to the doctor?
Speaker 2:Thanks for asking. Okay, yeah, this problem I've got is just now allergenic. It's neither bacterial nor a virus anymore. Okay, I have to just double the antihistamine Go, the antihistamine go on and pull up the carpet. How do you feel about that? Oh, by the way, we have to pull up the carpet in both rooms.
Speaker 1:Who has to pull up the carpet you have to pull?
Speaker 2:up the carpet in both rooms because I've got such a severe dust my allergy, and you can do it when I'm in bali drinking wine.
Speaker 1:Okay, so I didn't take the garbage out this morning no, I had asked you a number of times. I had transgressed shockingly now. Did Now? Did you feel a societal pressure to forgive me? For that no. Did you forgive me for that? No, no, right, I'm not forgiven.
Speaker 2:No, you're forgiven. Now I've moved on.
Speaker 1:Oh really, oh yeah, sure, but I wasn't going to walk in the door.
Speaker 2:Okay, so I go. There's the corn kernels, or whatever they are the cobs, yeah, the dog, choking hazard Now the dog could at any point, as has been his want, put his head in the garbage and take one out and then choke on it. It's very well documented Dogs choking on corn cobs. He's never done that, though. Okay, that's true, Because I'm careful that though he's okay, it's true. So, because I'm careful, Okay right Right so then okay. So then I say to you David, there are stakes, it's important.
Speaker 2:I've got, I have risen myself, I have done some tidying and cleaning. I am in the middle of writing my novel. Anyway. I've then said to David can you take the bin out? Don't leave the bin there, take. Anyway. I've then said to david can you put, take the bin out, don't leave the bin there, take the bin out. And then as I went to go, I yelled out into the garden. I thought in a pleasant manner. I said david, don't forget, don't forget the garbage that's what I think.
Speaker 2:I was picking up dog poo at the time yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, and you went okay okay and then I went to the gym, got a coffee, admired the amount of hits I'd got on my last Tuesday's episode because I interviewed the snarky gherkin and it was awesome. Yes, and then he could take over from you.
Speaker 1:Yes, I think so. He's much more popular than I am.
Speaker 2:If he's the snarky gherkin, what are you? What?
Speaker 1:am I A dill?
Speaker 2:pickle.
Speaker 1:I was going to say I was a side of beef in my own mind.
Speaker 2:No, no, well, they called him the dill pickle. Okay, okay. Well, think about what we're going to call you.
Speaker 1:Animal, vegetable or mineral.
Speaker 2:Something like something about a radish.
Speaker 1:I'm a radish now. Look, get back to the story, Anyway. So then you chatted to the snarky gherkin. Lots of people were interested in the podcast.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I was thinking about that anyway. So then I went to the doctor, got the antihistamine worked out. What was wrong with me came back and the bin was in the same state.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Now, as with everything, this is set against a context of repetitive. Well it is, you can't. It's not an anomalous situation.
Speaker 1:Look, that is so availability bias. You do not.
Speaker 2:You don't notice when I do take the garbage out.
Speaker 1:So it's just confirmation bias. Confirmation bias. Yeah, look, there's definitely a piece of it, because when you say that it always happens, no, I didn't say it always happens.
Speaker 2:It happens a lot Also.
Speaker 1:What does happen is, I say to you Just because I'm not in the habit of announcing everything that I do.
Speaker 2:Maybe you should.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, you know, I could follow your example and do that. You could follow your example and do that.
Speaker 2:Excuse me, what example is that?
Speaker 1:Well, I mean every time you do something like empty the dishwasher.
Speaker 2:I go. I've done that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, you've done that.
Speaker 2:You let me know that you've done that stuff.
Speaker 1:Whereas I, quietly I just do it because I think I don't want to be performative in my accounting for domestic.
Speaker 2:I'm not being performative, I'm just letting you know that I carry a lot of the housework. Anyway, go on, just reminding me, go on, yeah, go walk in, it's not done.
Speaker 1:And that's not correct. It's not that it's not done.
Speaker 2:It's not done yet.
Speaker 1:It's not done yet. That's right, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. So you know, like when, when, when you say that something is important to be done, then it will be done eventually yeah and then in the intervening, and then I did it because I can't stand it. Yes, but did you notice that I kept doing it In that there was a whole lot of recycling stuff that had to be taken, and I took that, oh congratulations, you finished it.
Speaker 2:I'm just saying, did you notice? Yes, I noticed Exactly the other thing you did.
Speaker 1:You know that tone of voice that you just did, oh, congratulations. You know that tone of voice that you just did, oh congratulations. You know you took the recycling out right. That is what that kind of over-reportage of doing domestic tasks deserves. You know, I've emptied the dishwasher, I've made the bed, I've walked the dogs, I've picked up the poo right. You know, like you don't get that from me during the day.
Speaker 2:That is true, exactly that is true. So that is why I do think confirmation bias. Can I talk about one more annoying thing? Okay, you ate all the butter and then left the empty butter container and the peanut butter container in the fridge empty. What is with that?
Speaker 1:There was so little butter and I didn't want the empty butter container to get rancid by leaving it out.
Speaker 2:Also, you leave the milk out. You make coffee and you leave the milk out. Well, you do Thank you. Anyway, no, in those situations.
Speaker 1:Talk to the snarky gherkin. He doesn't leave the milk out, he doesn't.
Speaker 2:Listen. In that situation, are you asking me, am I forgiving?
Speaker 1:I could ask that yeah. I'm not no, I'm not no.
Speaker 2:I'm not forgiving. It really annoys me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, okay.
Speaker 2:Okay Now, but that's me.
Speaker 1:But if the roles were reversed?
Speaker 2:would I be? Is that they're?
Speaker 1:not, Would I Again confirmation bias.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, go, would you be forgiving? Yes, yes.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:You are much more inclined in that direction than I am.
Speaker 1:Yes. There's no two ways about it Because I know how lucky I am to be with you.
Speaker 2:If I was caught on?
Speaker 1:Kiss Cam, kiss Cam Yep.
Speaker 2:You'd be like, oh, what have I done that's contributed to?
Speaker 1:that.
Speaker 2:If you were caught, I'd be packing your bag and closing down your side of the bank account or whatever it is you do.
Speaker 1:Fair enough too. Fair enough yeah.
Speaker 2:I would not be forgiving. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You would be forgiving, don't you think yeah?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I don obviously.
Speaker 1:You think you're nicer than me maybe I'm really nice to people. Maybe I'm spineless, you know, maybe that's it.
Speaker 2:No, I just think you're just less.
Speaker 1:I'm a shocking walkover and, just you know, grateful to be Grateful To be invited into your slipstream.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think you're just possibly nicer, anyway, although I am nice to people quite a lot.
Speaker 1:But not when they do you wrong.
Speaker 2:No no.
Speaker 2:Not when they point a finger at you and say Somebody pointed the finger at me at the gym yesterday, some older male was complaining about something and was going to talk to the women in the gym who had their babies there. And it's a community gym and we encourage women to keep exercising and we just work around the babies. It's the way we operate. And he complained and he came towards them and I intervened and said, look, this is a community gym and, um, we encourage women. It's hard enough when you have a small baby to get out of the house and all kudos to them.
Speaker 2:They managed to get out and we'll stand, then we'll do a squat with the baby and it all works really well. And he, anyway, he was approaching them and and said, um, if, if one of those children gets underneath the weight, then I could be sued. And I said listen, this is the community gym. And then he said now you listen to me, and that is a very bad thing to say to me. I really dislike somebody saying that to me, especially when they they point it did not go well.
Speaker 1:It did not go well. Have you forgiven him? No, no.
Speaker 2:No, I'm not going to forgive him. He's annoying.
Speaker 1:I'm not going to.
Speaker 2:Why would I forgive him? He's obviously got a terrible attitude. He was about to be abusive. All he had to say was look, I'm just worried I might drop a weight on a child, which is perfectly reasonable, and then we would do something to ameliorate the situation. But he was aggressive. No, I haven't forgiven him. And why should I?
Speaker 1:I'm not going to answer that question. No.
Speaker 2:So here's the thing about. I know a number of women that have been stuck in terrible sort of mediocre relationships with pretty feckless men, you know, in my broader community not in saying in my close group of friends for a number of years and they have just turned themselves in knots to talk about how grateful they are and how privileged they are and how blessed they are. He's got his moments, but when he's good, he's lovely. He's such a lovely man, that thing. Most of the time he's really good.
Speaker 1:Except when he's abusive and violent.
Speaker 2:Well, not violent. I mean it's not violent, but except when he's not, and it's like it's a really fucking low bar. Why do we expect and accept so little, and why have we taken hold of these perfectly reasonable premises like gratitude, like acceptance, like acceptance right, like forgiveness, and converted them into something where we end up taking rubbish treatment and then just spiraling downwards and wondering why everything's gone south?
Speaker 1:does that same dynamic in in in your mind also, uh, arise in professional relationships? You know the relationship with your boss, you know that you, you, you have to forgive bad behavior from some of the people that you work with. That there's that expectation.
Speaker 2:It's such a good point, because often the forgiveness has arisen out of a power dynamic that is imbalanced.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:And that's often the case with male and female relationships. You know, maybe she's had to stay at home for longer with the child, so she's been out of the workforce. She doesn't see herself or is maybe not as employable as she was. He's in a position where he hasn't had to take time out of the workforce and he is still working. So there's a power dynamic that is out out of the workforce and he is still working. So there's a power dynamic that is out. And so the reality is that women are forced into these situations structurally as much as anything else.
Speaker 1:I'm thinking about Monday Night's Four Corners, where they had a story on a spinal surgeon who, after unsuccessful operations, just did not go and see the patients to talk about what went wrong or to apologise in any way. For what?
Speaker 2:they did. It's a perfect example. Perfect example and that was Greg Mallum and we can use his name because it's out. We can't be sued here for defamation because it's now out.
Speaker 1:That's right Well that was the story and I thought that what was, I guess, resonant in that story, with the conversation that we're having now, is that there were relationships where the surgeon got away with it for so many years because Personal relationships.
Speaker 2:Yeah well, I mean, you've been married four times. That's a bit of a dead giveaway, right okay, okay you're.
Speaker 1:You're talking about his, his, um, his marital relationships. I'm talking about the relationship that one has with the patient oh perfect, yeah, and and there's definitely a power imbalance there. You know, if you go to a surgeon and the surgeon has got the magical power to, you know, make something happen that otherwise wouldn't happen.
Speaker 1:And you're desperate, you're vulnerable, that's right. They have an enormous amount of power and you're grateful, and you have to be grateful that you've got this fantastic surgeon. And if they make a mistake or if they say the procedure went well, but the outcome is just suboptimal and hide behind that language, there was that expectation that you're going to forgive them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there was strongly that expectation. So just to explain this Australian surgeon he was a neurosurgeon and there had been I don't know what his hit rate is but there had been a number of cases where the surgery had gone wrong and he had taken no time to talk to the patient to try and assuage their fears, to try and explain what had happened.
Speaker 1:Yeah, these were people who had woken up expecting that they would have movement, and they were then, and they were paralysed. They were paraplegic. Yeah, they were absolutely paralysed. Yeah it was pretty awful. It was heartening to see these people actually stand up for what was right and what was true and what they felt was fair, and so they prioritized something above being grateful and being forgiving, yeah, and I think it's like anger is an agent for change.
Speaker 2:Yep, and I think it's like anger is an agent for change. And that's my issue with this whole grateful, blessed sort of forgiveness space is are we just telling people, are we just getting them to suppress their emotions, which is terrible for you? It's like terrible for your mental health.
Speaker 1:On, one hand, you can suppress the way that you feel you know, suppress what you believe to be right and fair, to serve the performative notion of being a grateful and forgiving person. Yeah, spiritual person or a spiritual person, or you can say, no, this is the truth of actually what's going on.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know, these were my expectations. Yeah, they were not met.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I am in this situation and I don't believe that you know that accountability has been taken for that.
Speaker 2:And look, I'm not saying we have to all walk around in a rage all the time. You know, I know I spend, you know, vast quantities of my time being really optimistic and happy, but if I am pushed I have no trouble going hey, hang on. Yeah, that is not right and yeah, I just I thought that was to bring it back to how we started this. I thought that was to bring it back to how we started this. I thought that response from the wife of Coldplay guy.
Speaker 2:Andy Byron either if it's real or it's not. I think, the sentiment of, I will not seek performative forgiveness is just awesome, because how often do people go sorry and they don't mean it? They don't mean it don't mean it like when I say sorry to you. I do, though yes do you believe that?
Speaker 2:um, when you say sorry to me yeah I think to myself, it's unnecessary yeah, I know, I don't know why you say that it's not, but sorry is a really, really important dynamic in a relationship sorry seems to to be the hardest word. And on that note of sorry seems to be the hardest word. Thank you so much, David. I thought you actually contributed quite well today. Not as good as this Nike Gherkin, who was on on Tuesday, but he's now the exemplar.
Speaker 1:Okay, well, look, I'm grateful for the opportunity. What about the grumpy grapefruit? What are you coming up with? Cantankerous carrot Vegetable names for me.
Speaker 2:Cantankerous carrot.
Speaker 1:No, you've lost me now.
Speaker 2:What would I be if I had a vegetable moniker?
Speaker 1:I think you like celery.
Speaker 2:Do you yeah? Stringy and like water with hair. I don't know, monica, I think you like celery, do you yeah?
Speaker 1:What stringy and like water with hair, I don't know. Celery was the first thing that came to mind.
Speaker 2:I like a stick of celery. Yeah, in what way. They're just really stringy and boring. No, no, no, no, they're crunchy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they're crunchy full of vitamins and minerals. Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know flamboyant.
Speaker 1:They're not flamboyant. Flamboyant, yet wholesome, they're not flamboyant?
Speaker 2:Yes, they are. What is flamboyant about it?
Speaker 1:The top of the celery is flamboyant.
Speaker 2:What my hair is like. A yeah, oh, I'm going to think of a more positive. I'm going to think of something really, really positive. Apt A lugubrious lemon.
Speaker 1:What is that? You or me?
Speaker 2:You.
Speaker 1:A lemon.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:Lugubrious. Okay, never mind, I think we need to workshop this, we'll workshop it.
Speaker 2:Anyway, thank you so much, smart women, for tuning in. I hope you enjoyed our ramblings on the notion of forgiveness, acceptance and gratitude. Feel free to drop me a line if you have anything to add to our ruminations. I hope you have a delightful afternoon. Wherever you are in the world, keep your critical thinking hat on nice and tight. See you soon. Bye, thanks for tuning in to why Smart Women with me.
Speaker 2:Annie McCubbin, I hope today's episode has ignited your curiosity and left you feeling inspired by my anti-motivational style. Join me next time as we continue to unravel the fascinating layers of our brains and develop ways to sort out the fact from the fiction and the over 6,000 thoughts we have in the course of every day. Remember, intelligence isn't enough. You can be as smart as paint, but it's not just about what you know, it's about how you think. And in all this talk of whether or not you can trust your gut, if you ever feel unsafe, whether it's in the street, at work, in a car park, in a bar or in your own home, please, please, respect that gut feeling. Staying safe needs to be our primary objective. We can build better lives, but we have to stay safe to do that, and don't forget to subscribe, rate and review the podcast and share it with your fellow smart women and allies. Together, we're hopefully reshaping the narrative around women and making better decisions. So until next time, stay sharp, stay savvy and keep your critical thinking hat shiny. This is Annie McCubbin signing off from why Smart Women See you later.
Speaker 2:This episode was produced by Harrison Hess. It was executive produced and written by me, annie McCubbin.
