Why Smart Women Podcast
Welcome to the Why Smart Women Podcast, hosted by Annie McCubbin. We explore why women sometimes make the wrong choices and offer insightful guidance for better, informed decisions. Through engaging discussions, interviews, and real-life stories, we empower women to harness their intelligence, question their instincts, and navigate life's complexities with confidence. Join us each week to uncover the secrets of smarter decision-making and celebrate the brilliance of women everywhere.
Why Smart Women Podcast
Kate the pharmacist or Bree the influencer. Mmm who to trust ….? Episode
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You are listening to the why Smart Women podcast, the podcast that helps smart women work out why we repeatedly make the wrong decisions and how to make better ones. From relationships, career choices, finances, to faux fur jackets and kale smoothies. Every moment of every day, we're making decisions. Let's make them good ones. I'm your host, annie McCubbin, and, as a woman of a certain age, I've made my own share of really bad decisions. Not my husband, I don't mean him, though I did go through some shockers to find him, and I wish this podcast had been around to save me from myself. This podcast will give you insights into the working of your own brain, which will blow your mind. I acknowledge the traditional owners of the land in which I'm recording and you are listening on this day. Always was, always will be Aboriginal land. Well, hello smart women, and welcome back to the why Smart Women podcast.
Speaker 1:Today, I am, as usual, broadcasting from the northern beaches of Sydney, new South Wales, australia, and I don't want to show off, but it is a simply stunning day. It is early spring in Sydney and, for those of you that are listening in Europe and I know now that we have some listeners in South Africa and some listeners in Japan and we have listeners in the United States and we have listeners in Canada, and I'm sorry for you today because we are in the most perfect place in the world. Fucking hell, yo-yo, we're just okay, I'll just take out the fucking hell, but, um, that noise that you can hear in the background, listeners, that is my black groodle having a drink. Just, we're just going to have to pause proceedings now while she finishes the drink. Thanks, yo-yo. Yeah, in fact, just before we came on, air harrison noted that the other groodle had just had a drink and said to me isn't that good, because now we've got the sloping out of the way. But clearly that was um, premature anyway. Um, listen to this.
Speaker 2:Australian tap water is actually one of the most toxic waters in the entire world?
Speaker 3:No, it isn't. Australia has some of the strictest testing water standards anywhere. Tap water here is monitored daily. It's among the safest in the world. Maybe she's confusing us with India or Indonesia, where tap water is not considered safe in many areas because of the risk of E coli or Giardia or cholera. Maybe she's confusing us with sub-Saharan Africa, where large portions of the population rely on untreated wells or rivers or shared community taps and risk diarrheal diseases, cholera, typhoid or parasites. Unicef estimates 400 million people in Africa lack access to safe drinking water.
Speaker 2:Our water is treated with so many chemicals. It's estimated that it has over 200 dangerous chemicals 200 dangerous chemicals Wow.
Speaker 3:It's a miracle that the 24 million of us who drink Australian tap water every day are still alive All types of heavy metals, but particularly aluminium.
Speaker 2:When we fluoridate the water they use aluminium salts to fluoridate the water and those go into the brain and block dopamine receptors.
Speaker 3:No, they don't. A quick Google check will tell you that water fluoridation chemicals are sodium fluorosilicate or fluorosilic acid. If they use aluminium salts, as she's suggesting, that would be aluminium fluoride or aluminium fluorosilicate, which are compounds in chemistry, just not the ones used to fluoridate the water. The aluminium salts used in water treatment are aluminium sulfate, alum or polyaluminium chloride used in some treatment plants, but that's for clarifying dirty water to make the particles clump together so they can be filtered out. I cannot imagine what is in it for her to be making up this stuff. But it's not accurate, it's baseless, it's stupid. I mean, when you ask anyone, where do you think has the most dangerous drinking water in the world, no one is coming out with Australia in the number one position. It's fear mongering at its worst. And for what reason? I just don't get it. I just don't get it.
Speaker 1:That, dear listeners, was Kate Thomas talking about Sydney drinking water and, according to the influencer that she is debunking, sydney drinking water is filthy and full of heavy metals or something. Hello, kate, hi, thanks for having me An absolute pleasure. So, kate, tell me what your background is and how we've washed up together here in DY having a chat about disinformation.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's amazing. So my background is in pharmacy. I've worked in pharmacy ever since I left university, so that's 25 years ago and my substantive career was in hospital pharmacy. And then, when my children finished high school, I decided it was time for a break and I moved into some other pharmacy business and I started working in a shop pharmacy. Okay.
Speaker 1:Just two things about that. Number one is you don't look old enough to have children that have finished high school, so good job, you're very sweet. Good job on that. Secondly, it would appear that you actually have some degrees and you have some authority to be talking about science because you went to university and studied it yeah, as apparently you know, as opposed to just talking about, I don't know, spike proteins or something because you read it on google, is that?
Speaker 3:right, kate? Yeah, so I studied and then I worked it and lived it, and when I had my career break, I needed to keep my currency, my clinical practice, up to speed, so I started working at a community pharmacy. I'd never worked in a community pharmacy. It's very, very different to hospital pharmacy. Hospital pharmacy is very exciting medicine, very evidence-based, very procedural. And then community pharmacy is it? It's a different ball game. So it's, it's um, there's, it's a lot more. In what way is it different? Um, in so far as that I had no experience with any of the over-the-counter medicines, and so people would come in and say ask me things like what can I? I feel like I've got a cold coming on, what can I take to stop my cold coming on? Or I need, you know, just be asking me for herbs or for alternative therapies that I just had no idea about. Yes, and I thought I people are coming in and asking me about these things and I don't know anything magnesium for sleep yeah, so I need to.
Speaker 3:I need to educate myself on these things, sure, um? And at the same time, I have um, I've got, as I just said, old teenage children, and my daughter was doing the HSC and she came down to me one day and said can you make me a saffron latte? Because I heard this lady on TikTok say that it's great for anxiety. And I was like I don't, I'm miss that lecture at uni, or or maybe it is, and I just don't know. So I had to download the TikTok app and I just got sucked into this world of wellness woo, and I would be saffron lattes um turmeric everything turmeric, everything, turmeric, everything.
Speaker 3:Um, the saffron latte, it's just this. As with all of these things, there's just sort of, there's the tiniest little bit of an, of enough of a grain of truth, truth in there that it sort of makes it sound like it's going to be reasonable. But when you have a look at it, the amount of saffron that you would need in your latte is how much is? Um, let's get down to the tin text.
Speaker 1:So if I wanted to reduce my anxiety, which I am an anxious person, I'm always looking for things. I'm actually take anti-anxiety medication because I find it's really good. Funny about that, isn't it actually exercise tta?
Speaker 3:listed studied medication.
Speaker 3:Well, if you would like to swap that out for a saffron latte, sure you'd need to be spending probably 85 or 100 a day, yeah, to buy the amount of saffron that you, that you would need, yeah, to put in your latte. And I just thought you know what she can walk the dog. I think that will be as anxiolytic for her as any saffron latte that I'm going to make. But it did suck me into this world and as I started, I mean, this is the thing with TikTok Once you start looking for things, it just keeps feeding it to you.
Speaker 3:So now my feed is just full of um clove oil for a parasite cleanse, or oh can I just talk to you about parasites.
Speaker 1:So um, for my sins, I have to follow. We call them in the debunking community skeptical community. We call them the cookers yep, the cookers yeah so, for my sins, I follow a lot of cookers, um, because I need to keep up with what the latest is on on pseudoscientific offerings, and so there's a lot. It's just we apparently are just riddled with parasites. And how do we get? According to the cookers, we get rid of parasites by how well, depends on the, on the cleanse that's being offered.
Speaker 3:Um, often it's clove oil, often it's a mix of other things. But to your point, which is that we're full of parasites, we're not, of course we're not, so we are. Um. So parasites, by the definition, live at your expense. We are full of bacteria. Bacteria aren't parasites? Yep, and often with these pseudoscience cleanses when something is expelled. So if you poop something out, or if you wash something out, there's things that maybe look like they could possibly be worms, but of course they're just like bits of threaded protein together, or sometimes even parts of the actual cleanse that is coming out. But people love to believe that we're full of parasites.
Speaker 1:I don't know why they're obsessed with them. It's like we're just crawling with them, yeah and then. Yeah, this clove oil I've been reading about is an absolute favorite. And just let's talk to the general notion of detoxing, because if one more person says to me, because I've had COVID recently, it was really lovely, thanks for asking, it's terrific. And can I just say, in regard to that, of course I am a vociferous, changed it, sorry Harry. In regard to that, of course I am a vociferous, um, um, change that, sorry Harry. Of course.
Speaker 1:I am a person who was very, very pro-vaccine. So I had had my booster, um, and I got COVID. I'm an asthmatic um, which is it's not great for me to get COVID. Thank god I'd had the vaccine. But even though I had been had the booster, I still had a month. I had a month. I had an asthma flare. I had to go on prednisolone because now I'm quite well. But the number of people said to me now with the asthma, have you thought about just having a really good detox because it's really good for inflammation and um, so there was that and there was the other one which I've spoken about before on the podcast, was gross me to distraction. Have I thought about doing something with my breathing. As smart, I'm sure you've never thought about that, never given it a single thought. And the other, the big favorite, is bityeko breathing. Do you know about?
Speaker 1:I do not oh kate kate kate, welcome to the world of bityeko. Breathing and asthma it will just kill you. Amazing, yeah, it's incredible. There's no evidence for it. It's been debunked continually, but people really like to push it. They like to push. Have I thought about breathing? Have I thought about bityeko and just really clean up my diet? Yeah and if I could just take out are you still having um? Are you still having dairy? No, poor dairy. What happened to dairy? Let's talk about dairy. What? Why are they so obsessed with parasites and dairy?
Speaker 3:I think that it is a nice catch-all thing to do, isn't it? So it's a nice scapegoat. You can cleanse yourself of something, it's a proactive thing that you can do, and then you'll have done something for your health. That is practical, right, because there's certainly. I I mean people do get parasites, and so if you've, if you've been overseas and you've been somewhere and the water's dirty, or you, you know, you've eaten a parasite. Parasites are real things and you do need to kill them when you've got them. But there's a test for that, yes, and, and it's, and you don't have to rely on a feeling or a vibe. There's actually a test and they can see there are parasites. And then there's, and parasites are notoriously difficult to kill, so there's a there's flageol, and is it flageol that you take?
Speaker 1:Is that right or is that not right?
Speaker 3:So, I have a mectin, uh-oh and Uh-oh, combantrin, and things will kill your parasites.
Speaker 1:But you but in terms of a detox, I mean your kidneys and your liver do a brilliant job of detoxing your body and I think to your point, because detoxing is now just so in the vernacular. Everyone does it you can get a kit right that has?
Speaker 3:I don't know lemon, or Make your own lemon, and what can't you?
Speaker 1:cure with lemon.
Speaker 3:I feel like nothing.
Speaker 1:Nothing. You've got cancer. Have lemon, lemon, that's what I'd be doing. And back to the word that I can't believe you had to mention it, which is Sorry Ivermectin. So, obviously, because of the skeptics conference that I attend and often speak at, I did listen to an epidemiologist talking about the notion of ivermectin and, of course, there was some doctor over here that said ivermectin cures it and we've cured all of India. That's how it happened. Amazing. That's what they said Ivermectin. They gave it to the population in India. That was the cookers message, and then everyone was fine. And ivermectin is a horse paste, isn't it? What is it?
Speaker 3:They give it to horses, but we also do use it in humans, like in tablets. For that exact reason, we're not currently using it to cure cancer because there's no evidence for that yet.
Speaker 1:So where do you think it started then, this ivermectin craze?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think it stemmed from an Italian oncologist who started using it and he was how should I say? A wackadoodle, and he started prescribing it and then, during COVID, it had a resurgence. You probably remember everyone in America talking about how ivermectin was going to cure COVID, and it's just I don't know who's doing the PR for ivermectin, but they're amazing.
Speaker 1:I don't actually think anybody's doing it. It. I think that the online hysteria and the online networking around pseudoscientific cures is so febrile that as soon as one person goes and of course to your point and we should actually extrapolate on this is that an anecdote is not evidence. No Right, can you unpack that for me please? So anecdotal?
Speaker 3:stories are very um, they're very interesting and they can often spark curiosity in the scientific um community.
Speaker 1:So my uncle cured himself of covid by having ivermectin and and intravenous vitamin c. Say, if I say that to you, kate, isn't that interesting?
Speaker 3:yeah well I. So I was going to say more, um, I was going to say more. Richard scolia, who's given himself an off-label treatment for his cancer and whatever result he gets will be anecdotal, because it's just him and he will have whatever outcome he has. And then what the rest of the scientific community can do is go okay, well, let's look at that, and then we'll follow it down the path and see. But evidence is scientific rigor, it's art.
Speaker 1:So I just want to explain for our overseas listeners who Richard Scully is. So he was the Australian of the Year yeah. And he'd done fantastic research into melanoma.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And then he, extremely sadly, developed a glioblastoma, did he not? That's right? And what happened then? He?
Speaker 3:then he's. Then he and his colleague started using a treatment that we know works in a different kind of cancer and they supposed that it might work in this particular kind, in his particular kind of cancer. But there, but there were no studies on it and because of his diagnosis and because of his likely disease trajectory and also his background, he decided he wanted to try this. Yep.
Speaker 1:And so he would be in your. I don't come from a scientific background, but he would be a sample size of one.
Speaker 3:He's a sample size of one Yep and he'll have whatever outcome he gets and then from that that may spark an investigative route down that path. But until that treatment has evidence it will need to go through many, many, many clinical trials right.
Speaker 1:so here we have someone and this is the difference in the scientific community who is very, very literate, um, in scientific methodology, who has used an experimental treatment for a devastating cancer, and then the scientific community will look at that, and then they will progress it or not depending.
Speaker 3:yes, yes, that's right, and they'll progress it under very strict circumstances and in the proper scientific method. The problem with ivermectin is that you have all of these people saying um for my, I mean you'll have seen them um, I have seen I've cured my stage four, stage four, brain cancer using using ivermectin and the problem the the problem with that is that people are so desperate and I understand vulnerable of course they are.
Speaker 3:So they they are so desperate and they are so vulnerable and they are clutching at absolutely everything, and medicine doesn't typically talk in absolutes. So medicine is really you. You come in with your symptoms. What is the most likely thing that is wrong with you? Will investigate that. If it doesn't work out to be that, what is the most likely thing that is wrong with you? We'll investigate that. If it doesn't work out to be that, we'll investigate the next most likely thing. And then it's never an absolute. This is it and we're going to cure it like this, unlike a naturopath.
Speaker 3:Exactly so unlike all this wellness woo, which is I know what's wrong with you and I can fix it with this and that's really attractive to people who are trying, I think, honestly trying to do their best and also losing faith perhaps with a traditional medical system, especially in America Of course, of course. Where it's a very different system. It's a it's a user pays system and people aren't feeling heard or validated in perhaps the ways they can't afford it.
Speaker 3:Half the time they need to be and and they are clutching. So I wondered to that point.
Speaker 1:is it cheaper to go and see an alt-med like a, a naturopath or a herbalist in America? It's an interesting point. Are they cheaper than going to a GP, I wonder? I wouldn't have thought so either.
Speaker 3:And I find, with my diggings on TikTok and this I'm not sure if you've experienced this as well Probably it seems to be chiropractors who can't stay in their lane because every not every now I'm using huge absolute words, but huge generalizations, but every chiropractor I see on TikTok is calling themselves doctor and in America there's a, I think, their training.
Speaker 3:They must be able to call themselves a doctor of chiropractic, I think you can hear. I just think it's interesting that they are choosing to adopt the well-respected and trusted title of doctor and then attach it to their profession, which is really then trying to go against the learnings of the medical practitioners.
Speaker 1:Oh, I see what you mean.
Speaker 3:They're calling themselves doctor because it gives them validity.
Speaker 1:But actually they're anti-mainstream medicine, aren't they?
Speaker 3:Pretty much, yeah, but I can't imagine that saying I can't imagine a private appointment with your chiropractor your wellness chiropractor is going to be cheaper, but there must be something. Do you know what, annie? I'm struggling to understand it because it's not to my way of thinking at all. So I'm baffled. I mean, I started off watching these TikToks thinking there's no way. No one's believing this, surely?
Speaker 1:Oh, there's, no, there's no way, no one's believing this, surely?
Speaker 1:oh no, they, they definitely do, they definitely and I think to to um, I think we need to look at the fact that um two, two very salient points. One is that we use mental heuristics and mental shortcuts. So, um, we see the word doctor and we go, doctor knows what they're talking about, and then and we're just there. Yeah, I know this has happened recently with this um english cardiologist that came out and said that, um, the the mrna vaccines have killed thousands of people, and then they go. Well, where's the evidence?
Speaker 2:there's no evidence for that because he's a cardiologist and in fact I just posted it recently. Then I had one of the cookers going.
Speaker 1:he's a cardiologist and in fact I just posted it recently. Then I had one of the cookers going. He's a respected cardiologist. You don't know what you're talking about? Well, I do. Because, we get these rogue doctors and a rogue doctor, in my opinion, does huge damage.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Because we think well, you're a doctor, you must know what you're talking about, of course, and the other thing is the other point is that we are, we want certainty, and they're certain, yeah, and, and we want that I can. I know exactly what's wrong with you. You've got a parasite, or you're eating too much gluten, or you're not breathing correctly, or you need, you're allergic to dairy, or I mean, what about gluten? Didn't gluten get a bad rap?
Speaker 3:Yeah, and there are people who are genuinely cannot take gluten and there are people who are genuinely allergic Celia, yes, and also can't take dairy but we don't all of us need to be jumping onto that bandwagon at the expense of other things. I mean, mean, I guess it's up to you. If you, if you, want to cut out dairy, then filly boots, but certainly don't cut out dairy and cut out seeing your gp yep, and I think that's because we we often, we often talk in the skeptic circles and also with my fellow debunkers.
Speaker 1:I'm, I, um, I do, I do episodes with the snarky gherkin. Do you follow?
Speaker 3:yes, I love this snarky gherkin's awesome.
Speaker 1:He's brilliant. Do you know? Even I haven't seen what he looks like. Oh so when we do the recording he can see me, but I can't see him.
Speaker 3:I love it, he's a regular guest, the snarky gherkin.
Speaker 1:He's awesome and I have no idea what I was going to say about that. What? What was I going to say? What were we just talking about? You were interviewing sceptics. The interviewing says, oh yeah, that's right. And then people go to me well, what is the harm If somebody wants to go to a naturopathic, if somebody wants to add in, I don't know, some bit of St John's wort or whatever?
Speaker 2:it is that they do. Where's the harm?
Speaker 1:Everybody should make their own free choice. Well, they're not making their own free choice because we are vulnerable to these voices that are sort of vociferous. I believe we're very vulnerable to this certainty of their voices and secondly, it's so well documented that as soon as someone starts going down the alternate med path, especially if they have a devastating cancer diagnosis or something, they are then more likely to not adopt um treatment, mainstream treatment, which is extremely dangerous because it's like, apparently, according to the cookers, chemotherapy is poison or will kill you or something.
Speaker 3:I think that we could do perhaps poor doctors, because the GPs out there are so, so busy and they're expected to just take on so so much. So that's my prefix for what I'm about to say, which is that if perhaps people felt more heard by their gp, they could be, they could try to manage both of those things in parallel. But to your point about, um, what's the harm, I would say an example is I'm a perimenopausal woman. I'm experiencing, you know, some, um, some symptoms and it's terrific, isn't it?
Speaker 2:it's brilliant. I love it. I've been loving it.
Speaker 1:I love that. I love that for me. Yeah and um, I love being hot all the time.
Speaker 3:I love it. But if I decided from looking at a TikTok video that what I needed were phytoestrogens so perhaps I needed herbs that were phytoestrogens acting as weak estrogens in my body and I had had a history of a hormone positive breast cancer then those estrogens are contraindicated to me. But I might not know that and because I've bought it from A chemist Well, or online, or online, I think a chemist you would hope would be less. You would hope I see your face, you would hope would be more. You would hope I see your face, you would hope would be more. The conversation would be there. So that's one of the great things about, perhaps, independent pharmacies rather than massive, massive chains. You would hope that the relationship there is.
Speaker 3:I know kate. I know she's been on um uh, letrozole or something for her for her breast cancer, and now she's coming in with these menopausal symptoms and she's holding. She's holding something that is a phytoestrogen. I now know to say what's going on? Let me check your medical history. I can see this, this. You can't take this because that's that's the conversation that needs to happen there, because once you start feeding estrogens to a positive you know, a hormone positive cancer, then that's going to be a problem. These are the kind of conversations, okay.
Speaker 1:So I just want to go back over that because that is like super interesting and terrifying. So if I let's just say you've had a what was the sort of positive cancer diagnosis Estrogen, what was it? You framed it up.
Speaker 3:Oh, a hormone receptor positive cancer.
Speaker 1:So a hormone receptor positive cancer, let's say. And then your perimenopausal or menopausal. And so you've read online that these phytoestrogen, what capsules?
Speaker 3:yeah, so there are. There are a bunch of herbs and some people's microbiome in their gut can convert them into weak estrogens and some people's can't, and you've actually got no idea whether you can or not.
Speaker 1:And what's the problem with converting it into a weak estrogen? Oh, well.
Speaker 3:So then it's working as an estrogen in your body, which is the premise behind why it fixes your menopausal symptoms, because during menopause, your estrogen goes off the air. Okay, so I am on…. So it's like a form of hrt.
Speaker 1:I'm on hrt gel and that raises my estrogen, yeah, which minimizes my symptoms, correct, but I'm I know that because that comes from a. It's a pharmaceutical line of products, so if I had had that condition and I went to my doctor, he would say you can't have this hrt because of this. Yeah, right, but what's happened is you get an online supplement yes and the, and so it's so.
Speaker 3:So no one is actually overseeing the administration of that that's right, and often when you then go to see your gp and people say, or even even your pharmacy, often when you go into hospital you say, do you take any other medications? People either forget or they don't like to admit the natural over-the-counter supplements that they take because it's natural.
Speaker 1:It's the bias.
Speaker 3:The natural is better bias yeah, I mean, I think sometimes they genuinely forget, and I think other times they don't, they don't like to admit it or they they think it will, they think it'll be complicating in some way, so so they don't say necessarily all of their history, which then makes you know, giving care in a clinical environment really challenging if you haven't got the whole picture. So, um, I mean, there's other supplements, there's a whole range of drugs that can increase your um serotonin and put you at risk of a serotonin syndrome, and that can be as I mean, that can give you sweats, or that can be as life-threatening as you know, like a drug drug.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, a pharmaceutical drug, drug, yeah there are, and so when you get prescribed these things, you know, like your prescriber knows, this could possibly do this, and so we need to monitor you for this Right, and that's part of the. Clinical we need to monitor you for this and that's part of the clinical care, that's part of the ongoing clinical care. Got it? You go and buy something over the counter that can also have a predisposition to increasing your serotonin, like what I don't know.
Speaker 3:So actually, now you're putting me on the spot and I think St John's Ward, but maybe we better fact check that. That's ringing a big fat bell for me. Yeah, well, because they use it for depression. Yeah, so I just really think that if traditional western medicine could wrap our arms a little bit better around sure, this agree? Um, then we would have a much better chance of catching these vulnerable people. Perhaps they feel a bit judged, perhaps they don't feel a bit safe going to your.
Speaker 3:I mean, perhaps you don't, perhaps these people don't feel safe going to their medical oncologist and saying I really want to cure my cancer with happy thoughts, and I guess if you encounter a patient like that, then then you really have to spend the time taking them on the journey, and I know that that's a ridiculous thing to say, because these people are so, so, so busy.
Speaker 1:Well, they are busy, but, and just just to counter the, counter, the narrative that because I know a lot of the alt med, alternate medicine, sorry, um narrative is that, um, doctors are just in the, in the pocket of big pharma and they're just going to. They get paid every time they write a script, which is not true. It was not true in australia, not true, uh. And? And so instead, go to an alternate medicine practitioner, because they will really listen. And in my experience of alternate medicine practitioners that is true, like back in the day when I didn't know anything and I was ill, I ended up having a parathyroid tumor, but I didn't know that.
Speaker 1:And the the alternate medicine practitioners that I went to to try and work out why I was so thin and just generally unwell, they all listened, they were very caring, they stroked my hand because I didn't feel very well and they were just, yeah, they were really super nice and caring and really, really wrong. And within their wrongness, they were very definitive, very definitive and very, very wrong. And I ended up finding a doctor who worked out that I had elevated calcium and off I went. So but my doctor, my gp, um, who steers me through, you know if I get covert or if I get the flu or something and I have an asthma flare and it's complex. I'm not young anymore and um, he has to um sort of get the prednisone right or the prednisone gives me sort of anxiety which then?
Speaker 1:can mimic asthma symptoms and we don't know where we are. But he rings and talks to me and he's awesome and he's a. He's a, a local gp, and I couldn't recommend him more highly. So, um, I think to the narrative that doctors don't care is crap.
Speaker 3:Oh it's rubbish, oh, it's total total rubbish. It's absolute rubbish they are. I mean doctors and nurses, I mean they're so caring all the time. All the time and they think about their patients all the time. And I don't know what happens in America in that crazy system they have over there, but certainly in australia nobody's getting paid to prescribe anything no, absolutely not.
Speaker 1:and just because at the beginning of this I played just in, just in the clip, at the beginning I played your tiktok um, responding to one of the influencers' assertions that the Sydney drinking water is full of something. It's full of 200 chemicals Aluminium. What is it? What's it full of, according to her?
Speaker 3:She was taking umbrage. I think actually she was speaking even more broadly. I think it was Australian water. Australian water is among the most dangerous water in the world.
Speaker 3:Apparently, yep, india, worse than that? No, apparently, no, no, no, I um think she had said something like it's full of 200 chemicals and, um, they use aluminium with the fluoride and aluminium causes dementia, and that was the thing. That was the thing. And I guess if you were, if you were vulnerable enough or you weren't maybe as critical as I am, or you, oh yeah, do you know what? I don't know, but you, you may very well believe that?
Speaker 1:well then, what you do is you get the kangen water filter yeah and the so, and this is, this is the, the scam, the grift behind all of it, because I've heard this, I've had because I'm I'm a gym goer and I've often heard the younger women talking about how they won't drink the sydney water. Honestly, kate, it's a wonder wonder that I have any friends left. I spend my life going. That's not right. I'll be your friend. Thank you, friend, for life I go. That's not right about the Sydney drinking water. And they're like well, how do you?
Speaker 1:know, and I'm like well, it's just, you're listening to influencers. Stop listening to influencers. You just make shit up.
Speaker 3:Well, I think, listen to them, but use your Critical thinking, use your brain, so use your. Just have a little think. And how would you? Does that make sense? Does that make sense, like in life? Does that make sense that we're all drinking Australian tap water? There's 26 million of us and I think there's 24 million plumbed in, you know, who are on town water, so there's 24 million people who have access to Australian drinking water. Is what she's saying. Does that?
Speaker 3:sound right in that setting Like Barbara O'Neill's, put an onion on your neck for a sore throat.
Speaker 1:I'll just explain to anybody who's not familiar with the joys, the literal joys, of Barbara O'Neill. Also can I just say, may I just say that Barbara O'Neill and her cohort and someone else who I won't mention because she's litigious, but she's involved with the Australian Vaccination Network they don't look very well, these people. I just want to say for all the onion. So I'll just explain. Sorry, I distracted myself. Then, listeners, barbara O'Neill is a she's been, she's a disgraced. What is it when you can no longer practice as a naturopath?
Speaker 3:Well, she was never registered, so she didn't complete her nursing degree and then started calling herself a naturopath.
Speaker 3:I don't know that is there a body she has no, so naturopaths aren't registered, like they're not registered um with the australian health practitioners registry body, like pharmacists and nurses and optometrists and doctors and even Chinese medical practitioners they're all registered and naturopaths don't have to be registered. And then therefore, there's this wide range. So there's now a huge, wide range of naturopaths and some are extremely good and very knowledgeable and have good learning and can work alongside.
Speaker 1:Hang on, let's go back to that. I didn't know that. Yeah, what Say that word again. Who's knowledgeable?
Speaker 3:So there are definitely. Are you a face? There are definitely naturopaths out there who are thoughtful, clever people and they have done you know, they have They've done study and they have things to offer Like what. I actually work with a pharmacist who is also a naturopath and she's amazing because then in the shop when somebody comes in and says I want berberine, and I go, I don't know what that is, I don't even know what is berberine. What is berberine? What is berberine?
Speaker 3:well I think, it's well it, I think berberine is the natural metformin, so it's that, it's the one that you take. It's like it's the natural eczempic, you know you take it to berberine.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a way I've never heard in my whole life of berberine. It's hang on.
Speaker 3:So instead of eczempic, I could take berberine well not if you want to lose weight, but certainly if you wanted to lose money. But she, so she's amazing at that. So people will come in and say so she's got her pharmacist hat on and her naturopath hat on and she can talk. She can talk to those people, she can speak their language and she can explain it and she's amazing. But then the other end of that, can we go back to berberine?
Speaker 1:no, just because I really like the name is berberine, is it nonsense?
Speaker 3:it's a herb of some description. And what is it? And it's meant to be the natural metformin, and metformin is a you know metformin.
Speaker 2:It's used for type 2 diabetes, but it's also used in polycystic ovaries and like it's used to sensitize, I know sensitize insulin, and but berberine?
Speaker 3:berberine is the, does it do anything? Well, I don't think that there's been, and again you, we may have to just fact check me on this, but I couldn't quote you a study where berberine has actual activity. So not a high quality study.
Speaker 1:So that's berberine Can't go back to her, this naturopath, so she knows that. So what does she study then? What can she offer from her naturopathic practice?
Speaker 3:So she can offer. She's got a critical way of looking at natural therapies and the way that they are tested. So there's some that are listed on the TGA and then there are a whole lot that aren't. Oh right, so she's really good at cutting through that kind of rubbish where I I am not so good at that hang on.
Speaker 1:So some of these um for for listeners who are unaware and don't live in australia, the tga is our therapeutic goods administration, but to the best of my knowledge, the tga is very overworked and doesn't have a very good oversight. Would you agree with that?
Speaker 3:the tga is, it's our regulatory body and it's it's sort of as how do I say it? It registers medications and it also lists them and there's a difference. So, or can you explain? That's awesome. So prescription medications are registered, yep, and to get registered you have to provide x number of clinical trials or whatever. The process is. It's intense. Yeah, to be listed, to be listed.
Speaker 3:That's a, that, that's the, that's a level down. So to to be listed, you have to let them know you're selling it, let them know what's in it and let them know what claims you're going to make. But they don't. They're not going to test it all.
Speaker 1:I mean, this is what happens to me, I have to drive past Mr Vitamins, you know every day. And Mr Vitamins, which has muscly people on a poster outside it enlists herbs of gold. At the front there's herbs of gold, and if you walk into mr vitamins there is literally like aisle after aisle after aisle after aisle of vitamins that can pretty much, according to the bump on it, do any do everything for you, right? So I. So the therapeutic goods administration could not be testing or it would not have listed no, all the vitamins and supplements that are sitting in mr vitamins, yes, yes, correct.
Speaker 1:So what's the method? So, okay, why would you list something? Or why would you not list something with the TGA?
Speaker 3:Well, I guess that's a matter for the manufacturer, and I imagine listing anything with the TGA is a process. It costs you money and it costs you time, and would you? I don't know that everybody's going to do that. So therefore, there's a bunch of herbs and remedies that are available that aren't listed but, yeah yeah, but then there's no oversight of those whatsoever. Yeah so.
Speaker 1:So if, if I have listed something with the tga, um, let's say something like ashwagandha, which I keep, apparently is going to completely cure my anxiety your anxiety. Yeah, is that the cortisol one? It's ashwagandha, I don't know, but it's just everywhere, everywhere, everyone's ashwagandha ring. So if they've listed it and I don't know if they have, I I think I think they may.
Speaker 3:I think some brands have ashwagandha. I don't know. Do you know what Don't?
Speaker 1:quote me on that. I don't know. So now I'm just really confused. So let's just say ashwagandha makes a series of claims and it says they always sort of they fudge it. Right, they definitely fudge things on. It May reduce symptoms of anxiety, Right? Because they can't say will.
Speaker 3:They can't say will. They can't say will.
Speaker 1:Right, but how is a woman in the world or in Australia start that again? How do I discern as a consumer what's listed and how do I work out? Because in my mind, if something's recommended by a naturopath, then it's just a bit wacky because no one's tested it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's really complicated and it's overwhelming for people and it's overwhelming for clever people. It's overwhelming for discerning people. Yeah, for discerning people, for sure for discerning people. Yeah, for discerning people. So I think my, my message would be if you're looking for an alternative medicine or you were looking for something that you, you feel it you is supportive you know they love to say supportive yeah they're like supporting your immune system yeah, I just wanted to shoot myself children in gloves and beanies and mothers running through leaves that's what I keep saying in some sort of park.
Speaker 1:I was running through a park and there's autumn leaves and all winter's coming and they're near a swing and they've got beanies on and they've got little gloves on, the child's looking all cherubic and it's like do you want to support your child's immune system?
Speaker 3:I'm like, and have some sort of fucking gummy but also surely the only the only correct answer to that is yes, I guess, like because you can't know, I don't want to support my child's immune system yeah, I don't care about child. Set that question up the right way. The only correct answer is and then what they do?
Speaker 1:is they want to give you a, something which is full of I don't know what they say support the immune system. But I wouldn't touch that with a hand. I wouldn't go near something that said it was going to support my immune system, because I don't think it would work.
Speaker 3:So I think then we need a system that educates. So we'll say pharmacists, because I'm a pharmacist and I can talk about that. So we need a system that educates pharmacists from when they're baby pharmacists, baby pharmacists when they're little baby pharmacists With a dummy in their mouth.
Speaker 3:Learning at university and they go out into the wide world and they have been taught about these things. They have been taught about how to critically, critically, examine the um, the claims that some are making they have. They have been taught. I mean, and actually since I did pharmacy 25 years ago, I think they have started to introduce this into the new degree but they, but if there was, if there was a way where people felt they could go into a pharmacy and not get shunned or not get shamed but also not get bullshitted by that would be like the perfect outcome.
Speaker 3:That would be the perfect outcome.
Speaker 1:Either shunned, shamed or bullshitted. Yeah, but to your, because I have to go back to this naturopath that you work with because it's fascinated me. So what sort of products would she be advocating from her naturopathic perspective?
Speaker 3:So, specifically, I I guess I don't know, but she has, um, she has just more knowledge than I do about those kind of therapies and I've I've heard her speaking to people and saying no, you don't need that, that doesn't work, you don't.
Speaker 1:But she does have products that in her framework do work. Yeah, she does.
Speaker 3:Oh, okay, yeah she does, so she has, and she'll, so she, I'm interested.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'd really like to know Actually.
Speaker 3:I heard her say to somebody in the shop the other day somebody had come in wanting voltaren.
Speaker 3:So voltaren is I know um anti-inflammatory anti-inflammatory and this person was buying a box of voltaren, and so she just asked the question what's, what's going on? And she said I've got a sore knee, whatever, whatever. And then she's just having a conversation. She said there's a, there's a, there's a study, oh, of a. There's a head-to-head study with curcumin and voltaren uh, norepinephrine I think it is and over this, this study, the, the curcumin, had a similar anti-inflammatory effect, but without the gastric upset, upset.
Speaker 1:Okay, so curcumin is um, is is the element element yeah, well, it's the well it's turmeric.
Speaker 3:Yeah, on your little mind, you've blown my mind. Yeah, and some people it's. It's um, famously poorly absorbed yeah, which is what I thought, which is why everybody on tiktok is making their own homemade curcumin turmeric capsules and they're cracking black pepper into them. But if you have a particular type of gut biome, they now think that you may be able to turn that into something that's absorbed, or or they have these formulations where they they claim that they're better absorbed.
Speaker 1:So if you, if you break these things down, curcumin is like the is the sort of element at the bottom of it, right?
Speaker 3:yeah, well, yeah, it's it's the molecule.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry, that was the word. That's the word I'm looking for. Yeah, so curcumin.
Speaker 3:So she's able to say that.
Speaker 1:Now I was listening, my little ears pricked up because I was like, wow, yeah, mine would be too, and she wasn't selling a supplement off the shelf. She, I think, ended up selling the voltaren and the curcumin, see, and then I get suspicious, yeah, and this is this is challenging.
Speaker 1:This is where my deeply skeptical brain comes in, in that I okay, I've got over here. I've got voltaren, which we, we know has side effects. We know that for a fact. But it's been through a um, the systematic testing and the side effects are clearly stated, that that's what can happen. And then over here I have curcumin and I don't know what that's been through. I don't know how much testing they're doing, I don't know what trials they've done.
Speaker 1:So I find and this is where I have an issue, I guess, from a moral or an ethical point of view is that and I, I have a pharmacy here that's very much inclined in that direction, so the pharmacists are great.
Speaker 1:So I walk into this pharmacy over the road I won't say the name of it, uh, it's hot, it's a whole foods pharmacy and man, I mean I go in there for my medications for my asthma or my HIT or my, my nexium or whatever, because I get a bit of reflux and um, man, that place is just chock-a-block full of woo. It's just full of it, yeah. So I walk in with my skeptical brain and I just walk past the woo, yep, and then I just walk past the woo and then I get to the bit where I understand things are being tested and I film my script and I go home and they're delightful, they're so helpful, um. But if I walk in to this pharmacy, which has, from an acting background we talk about um status and pharmacists have status, societal status, where we infer them with knowledge, like we do a doctor. So if I've walked into a pharmacy and there's stuff on the shelves that are going to cure my sleeplessness or my muscle pain, I'm going to go. That would work and it's impossible?
Speaker 3:isn't it because they are possible?
Speaker 1:I think, I don't think they should be there.
Speaker 3:I'm not a um owner of a shop, so I, it's just commercial right work one day. But I guess if it were my business then I would have a very different view on that.
Speaker 1:And would you have a naturopath working in your business if it was your business? So?
Speaker 3:in my ideal business, it'd be really. That's a really tricky question, because we have spoken in this conversation about trying to bring people in.
Speaker 1:Which is what we want.
Speaker 3:Yeah, which is what we want. So, from that point of view, offering more than just the one offering would be maybe meeting people where they think they need that yeah, and I guess, especially if the person is discerning and saying, no, you don't want what Barbary, what was it?
Speaker 1:Berberine, Berberine? That's not going to work. From a debunking point of view, I totally get it. Yeah, but because then you could say well, like gee, you know you must be really struggling with this issue and how can we help you?
Speaker 3:and yeah, so then they can more carrots or something. Yeah, well, the idea then would, I guess, be to be able to offer a I love sorry, because I actually truly hate this word a more holistic, oh yeah, you've said it now sorry, I know I'm so sorry. I almost had to gag yeah, gag on the word so they are in a very tricky position. Because then I guess, if you're offering nothing but prescriptions and laxatives and antihistamines, and Sounds good to me, I don't know if there's a business model there. It would be.
Speaker 1:Maybe there is a business model there just for a really small chemist, just a hole in the wall, just that just dispenses, I don't know, antidepressants and laxatives and and statins, and and maybe you can also sell tissues and nappies and antihistamines, no tissues, no nappies, just that, just that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that would that Just that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that would be really good. I personally would go to that chemist because then I wouldn't have to walk down the aisle going oh my God, stop making that promise. That is so much shit. Well, maybe it's not a bad idea, maybe that's a great idea, I don't know. And I also to the other end of the market and this sort of takes in the the notion that sydney drinking water is filthy and disgusting and we all have to have a kangen water filter. Um, also because apparently so good kangen water filters also get rid of the parasites oh so you're right, hey, lucky.
Speaker 1:Oh, I know I think inherent in a lot of these sort of I'm only going to eat organic and I'm only going to grow everything myself and I'm only going to drink filtered water and I'm only going to grow and kill my own chickens.
Speaker 3:It's just so privileged it is, it is, it's by the way, is this Sydney tap water I'm drinking?
Speaker 1:Oh yes, be careful, it's divine.
Speaker 3:I love it. It's tasty.
Speaker 1:Watch out for the parasite.
Speaker 3:I think that people are surely I'm trying to see, I'm trying really hard, annie, to see the best, to see people's intentions as the best. So I'm sure they are. They are trying to do their best but, as you said, there are it.
Speaker 3:It is a very privileged position to to be in um, but also forget that we're, we're in, we're in an unbelievably privileged position where the whole bit where we, uh, I mean and I know you've been saying how glorious the day is outside and it's we're in an unbelievably privileged position, the whole bit when we are. I mean, I know you've been saying how glorious the day is outside and it's true, but to live in this country where you can show up to a public hospital For free, for free, and have access to the same doctors who are working privately I know that there are some exceptions, I know some just work privately, but it's awesome, it's just so awesome.
Speaker 1:Our medical system. My father-in-law has a very serious illness and we're dealing with that at the moment and the specialists that he has seen have just been extraordinary. Yeah, caring, compassionate, not conclusive, offering options. We may be able to do this, but maybe we won't. It's up to you. Empowering, like you know, and we can.
Speaker 1:Just, all of us in my family at some point have had to walk into an emergency department in a hospital. You know I'm a medic, or you know someone's fallen over or whatever. We've all had to do it. It has been fan-bloody-tastic. We are so, so lucky, and I think, off the back of this extreme fortune and I'm not saying that there are not, of course, poverty and people that do live on the margins in in our society, I know that, of course, and we happen to live here on the northern beaches, which is extremely privileged, um, but within that, um, that privilege, I think, arises this notion of forgetting that this is where we are and it just becomes background noise and suddenly, what can I pick out of this environment that I'm not happy about?
Speaker 1:yeah, go and live in pakistan, go and just live in bali. Honestly, yeah, yeah, and, and and.
Speaker 3:Turn the tap on and have a drink of water I mean, you wouldn't dream of doing it, no, and I I just feel as though the You're almost looking for trouble. You know You're looking for problems by saying Sydney tap well, australian tap water is and also selling something and then also selling something.
Speaker 3:I mean, I guess that's a lot easier to understand. That opinion is a lot easier to understand if it's then followed up with by my, by my water filter. But there are there seem to be people on social media who are just fear-mongering for the, for the fun, or I just don't understand the motivation behind it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is interesting, isn't it? I think, in terms of something like because because we discuss this a lot, sniky, and I discuss this a lot that, in terms of belonging to, like an anti-vax, let's say, you belong to an anti-vax sort of cohort of people, then you're not alone, you belong. You have an exceptional intelligence because you've been able to see through what society, us sheeple can't see through. So I'm very smart, I'm very discerning and I get to belong and have an identity and we know how much we need an identity.
Speaker 1:I think people, there's a very strong need for relevancy. So, um, you can't see. So, kate, you can't see that the sydney drinking water is full of aluminium and whatever else apparently it has. But she can, and then you get. I don't know if there's sort of like a narcissistic feedback thing, whereas they get seen, I don't know either. I find it mystifying.
Speaker 3:It is mystifying and dangerous it's, it's very, it's very dangerous. Um, I am trying to see my own privileged position like in this whole conversation. So I do, I do try to reflect on you know where, where I'm coming from with, with my opinions and with my background and my education, and you know all of that. Um, so I am doing work on myself in that space. But I, what do you do to work on that?
Speaker 1:I mean to to work on your sense of perspective.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I I try to um when I go running, I try to think. I suppose mostly it's gratitude, isn't it? So mostly I try to acknowledge that I have had. I was born in an amazing country, that I had an amazing education, that I am surrounded by people who are have had similarly wonderful experiences, and so therefore, I can, I can, I can trust the public hospital when I go there, because I've never I've never had a bad experience and I that's interesting because I have big issues with gratitude, um, but I think yours is a very practical gratitude.
Speaker 1:I have issues with gratitude when people try and paper over some sort of terrible thing that's going on with their life by trying to to to feed themselves with notions of gratitude when they shouldn't.
Speaker 1:But that, to me, is smart, because you're like, this is the perspective I come from and you are fortunate like I am. Um, I have the brains to be able to sort through this stuff, right, I guess I don't know, um. So, yeah, I guess we must always sort of check our privilege, check our privilege at the door. I think I find there's sort of two elements to it. One is that the motivation of people who debunk science in order to grift and sell something. I'm very unforgiving, yeah, and I shall remain so. I do not want to forgive them, because I don't know how many people have died because they haven't had their cancer medication.
Speaker 1:And I find it unforgivable. The people that sort of cling on onto the coattails of that, I think I, I wish, I wish that we could have a conversation and I'd go. This is actually not working, like I. I try and see them compassionately. So I've got two lanes I've got the compassionate lane and then I've got the furious lane. Yeah, I spend way too long in the furious lane.
Speaker 3:I also didn't mean to come across sounding too preachy, then, and and certainly I'm um no, you didn't? I'm not, um, it really very. I mean, I'm absolutely with you in the furious lane most of the time, um, but I and I think it's probably part of a much larger discussion sorry, a much larger discussion about how we are getting further and further apart from each other, so more and more and more polarized.
Speaker 2:Agree.
Speaker 3:And and thank. I mean, I don't know if this is the direction you were going to take this conversation, annie, but thank goodness for um, thank goodness for for mandatory voting. Oh, my goodness Me, thank goodness for um.
Speaker 3:Thank goodness for for mandatory voting oh my goodness me, thank goodness for mandatory voting in australia and it just, it absolutely makes me it just baffles me that we're one of 18 countries in the whole world that have it, not even new zealand, not even the uk, I know, don't ask me crazy because it, because it actually makes us a whole lot more moderate, because it's true, because we hear from everybody, and then you see what happens when, when that doesn't when, when people are just getting further and further apart and it's not a, it's not a place we want to be. We don't want to, we don't want to be there no, and I hope.
Speaker 1:I hope we never arrive there. And before we wrap up, can I just ask you? You had one very interesting tick tock around mammograms, oh, do you mind talking about that before we wrap up?
Speaker 3:Oh it made me so cranky?
Speaker 1:Yes, the furious lane.
Speaker 3:I'm back in the furious lane because I saw a TikTok and it was an American lady and she was saying did you know that Switzerland have become the first country to ban mammograms? Well, they haven't. I mean, in a quick Google search will tell you that. So that's Lie, lie. Tell you that, so that's lie, lie. And then she said why don't I get mammograms? Because I don't want cancer and and can.
Speaker 3:Then they put x-rays through your breast and it gives you cancer and it just, it just doesn't. I mean, it's the same amount of radiation as you get from living on the earth for about six weeks, which we're all doing. So I think that that kind of she's saying you know, there's plenty of other ways you can check for breast cancer. Well, you can self-check for breast cancer, of course, but it requires you to be able to feel it and by the time you can feel it, it's big enough for you to feel. That's the whole point of a mammogram is that it will pick something up before you can feel it when you've got a better chance of dealing with it before it got too big, of course you can feel it when you've got a better chance of dealing with it before it got too big, of course.
Speaker 1:So don't be saying things like that motivates her. What motivates her? I don't know. I have no clue. I have no clue. So bad, but it's it, it is it's I'm speechless, I'm speechless, and on that speechless note, thank you so much for coming that was really great, and do you think maybe you'd have time to come back again?
Speaker 2:no, I would love that because I think we have much more to talk about oh my god, we could do.
Speaker 1:We could actually have a conversation with this nike gherkin well, I would love that yeah, we, we went on, we had also, I had the snarky gherkin, I love him, and also had dave from the vaccination station I love him, I know we were awesome, we I have awesome guests, all right, so thank you so much for traveling all the way to the northern beaches.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1:It's heaven here. I know it is heavenly, and thank you so much, listeners, for tuning in today. I hope, wherever you are, you are safe, you are well and remember, keep your critical thinking hats on. See you later. Bye, thanks for tuning in to why Smart Women with me, annie McCubbin. I hope today's episode has ignited your curiosity and left you feeling inspired by my anti-motivational style.
Speaker 1:Join me next time as we continue to unravel the fascinating layers of our brains and develop ways to sort out the fact from the fiction and the over 6,000 thoughts we have in the course of every day. Remember, intelligence isn't enough. You can be as smart as paint, but it's not just about what you know, it's about how you think. And in all this talk of whether or not you can trust your gut If you ever feel unsafe, whether it's in the street, at work, in a car park, in a bar or in your own home, please, please, respect that gut feeling. Staying safe needs to be our primary objective. We can build better lives, but we have to stay safe to do that. And don't forget to subscribe, rate and review the podcast and share it with your fellow smart women and allies. Together, we're hopefully reshaping the narrative around women and making better decisions. So until next time, stay sharp, stay savvy and keep your critical thinking hat shiny.
Speaker 1:This is Annie McCubbin signing off from why Smart Women. See you later. This is Annie McCubbin signing off from why Smart Women See you later. This episode was produced by Harrison Hess. It was executive produced and written by me, annie McCubbin.
