Why Smart Women Podcast
Welcome to the Why Smart Women Podcast, hosted by Annie McCubbin. We explore why women sometimes make the wrong choices and offer insightful guidance for better, informed decisions. Through engaging discussions, interviews, and real-life stories, we empower women to harness their intelligence, question their instincts, and navigate life's complexities with confidence. Join us each week to uncover the secrets of smarter decision-making and celebrate the brilliance of women everywhere.
Why Smart Women Podcast
Boost Your Immune System? My Foot Patch Says Hi
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If certainty had a sound, it would be the wellness aisle whispering boost, detox, and natural into your ear. We pull back the curtain on why those words feel so right—and why they so often lead us astray. With Richard Saunders from Australian Skeptics, we unpack how intuition clashes with evidence, how authority bias makes white coats and big badges persuasive, and how deepfakes and influencer snippets outpace careful science in the attention economy.
Listen to Richard's Podcast - https://www.skepticzone.tv/
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Welcome, mission, and a skeptical guest
SPEAKER_00You are listening to the Why Smart Women Podcast, the podcast that helps smart women work out why we repeatedly make the wrong decisions and how to make better ones. From relationships, career choices, finances, to photo jackets and chaos movies. Every moment of every day, we're making decisions. Let's make some good ones. I'm your host, Anny McCubbin, and as a woman of a certain age, I've made my own pair of really bad decisions. Not my adult, I don't think, but I did go through some chocolate to find it. And I wish this podcast had been around to save me from myself. This podcast will give you insights into the working of your own brain, which will blow your mind. I acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which I'm recording, and you are listening on this day. Always was, always will be, Aboriginal land. Well, hello, smart women, and welcome back to the Why Smart Women Podcast. Today I am broadcasting as usual from DY on the northern beaches of Sydney, New South Wales, Australia. And today with me, um, sort of as a corollary to our adventure to the Mind Body Spirit Festival, which we'll be talking about in a minute again, because I'm still recovering from the shock of it. I have Richard Saunders, who is the chief investigator for the Australian Sceptics, which may not mean something to many of you listeners, but it's about to. Hello, Richard.
SPEAKER_01Hello, I I brought you a large bottle of uh alcohol to help calm your nerves from our adventure.
Common sense vs the scientific method
SPEAKER_00Yeah, um, because we had attended the Mind Body Wallet Festival and um I'm still recovering. Richard has bought me a large bottle of gin, which um we've already started drinking, so things should be well lubricated. So, Richard, is Richard close enough to that microphone? Harrison. Good, good, good, good. And we have Yo-Yo in attendance, and in a minute, my son Loughton's going to bring a coffee in, and um which means she'll bark, but listeners are used to that. So I thought we'd start with the question, Richard, as you have been in the Skeptics organization for about five million years, even though you look so young.
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Everyone assumed we were married, didn't they?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, the other day that was funny. That was really funny. I mean, we were walking around almost arm in arm looking at stuff. So it's it wasn't a bad assumption to make.
SPEAKER_00It wasn't a bad assumption.
SPEAKER_01And people make assumptions all the time.
SPEAKER_00Yes, and let's talk about that, how people make assumptions.
SPEAKER_01People make assumptions. And it really does get back to scepticism in a strange sort of way that common sense isn't common us and science, the method of science, isn't common sense, which sounds contradictory.
SPEAKER_00Explain that to me.
SPEAKER_01The best explanation I can give you is if you look out here at DY every morning, lovely views, the vistas to the ocean, what happens when you look gaze out to sea before the dawn? What then happens? The sun comes up. Sun comes up. No, it doesn't. Common sense tells you the sun is coming up. In fact, the earth is rotating towards the sun, right? Ah That is an example of how in our day-to-day lives, it's great. Common sense, you know, you know, our our perceptions work well, they get us by, great. But when it comes to many details like that, for example, is it any wonder that people used to think that the sun rotated around the earth?
SPEAKER_00Because that's what we see. That's what we see.
SPEAKER_01And the scientific method is full of things where you think, oh, I'm pretty sure that's true, but you know what? I better double check that. It's like optical illusions.
SPEAKER_00And it's like um, well, we use heuristics, you know, mental shortcuts all the time, and we have to use heuristics, otherwise we'd never make our way through the day, correct?
Misinformation, deepfakes, and influencer certainty
SPEAKER_01Correct. And and one thing, very important thing is to remember about humans is we've evolved to be a very successful species, right? Without most of our existence, without the scientific method, we still manage to have children and eat and and and carry on the species. So the scientific method and and critical thinking is relatively new. How new? Well, that that's how long is a bit of string. We don't know exactly when it was, you know. I mean, well, people have been practicing science ever since there was people, but it you it was it it took a long time to flourish, especially in the the Renaissance, where a lot of scientific thought flourished. Say that six times quicker. Yes, yes. More gin, please. Um but the important thing to remember is we evolved a certain brain, it works incredibly well, it gets us through the day-to-day, but it does let us down occasionally. And mind, body, spirit is a great example where lack of education, uh, lack of scientific knowledge uh can really leave us open to being fleeced.
SPEAKER_00Yes, and fleeced we are, and especially um at the moment, I think, with the invention of the internet, is that disinformation and misinformation is coming at us at breakneck speed, correct?
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah, and more so than ever before in any point of our history, and it's exponential. I mean, uh the other day I was just mindlessly looking at TikToks and well, I was looking at yours, of course. Thank you, thank you. Thank you, Richard. And that's where I get the promos from because I run promos for your podcast on my podcast, the skeptic zone of TikTok.
SPEAKER_00And um ri we will put a link in the show notes to Richard's podcast. You've appeared on my card on my podcast many times. I have it's called the Skeptic Zone. It's very, very good. And there should be more skeptical podcasts instead of people selling us rubbish, correct?
SPEAKER_01Snake oil. But on there you can see uh videos of Elvis Presley and Freddie Mercury and President John F. Kennedy walking around chatting to people, John Lennon. And it's now to the point where if you just look at it, you do not have the capacity to tell it's computer generated. So, yes, this information I and and that could be used for entertainment, that might be fine. But the point is uh m a lot of what you see online is simply wrong. People can just put any anything up they like, you know.
SPEAKER_00And um I've discussed this prior um with the snarky gherkin, who's who's a very good and um prolific debunker. And we talked about the fact that a lot of these influencers, influencers that are promoting things like um you shouldn't have seed oils because they're giving they're shutting down your brain, giving you inflammation, um, causing premature menopause and giving you cellulite. Apparently, did you know, Richard, there was no cellulite until like 20 years ago. Apparently, it's new.
SPEAKER_01I'm just checking my legs.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'm just I'm looking at my legs, and there's plenty of it on my legs. Anyway, so um these influencers, they get online and they start saying something like seed oils are the work of the devil, right? Or whatever the current thing is. It's still gluten, apparently, is terrible.
Authority bias and the wellness marketplace
SPEAKER_01Well, here's the thing I mean, the the by and large, the the population out there, as I said before, they're not uh they don't have the knowledge or the education, and why would they? Why we don't all walk around with this and a scientific biology encyclopedia in our brain, you know. Uh and so we are all open to hearing this stuff and going, is that right? I don't know. I wasn't I didn't do the university degree, I don't know if this is right. And so another thing to remember about humans as a species is that we've been evolved to listen to authority figures.
SPEAKER_00Yes, and what does that do? What's the problem with that?
SPEAKER_01Well, the the advantage in our past was when the leader of the tribe said this, this, this, and this, it was probably wise to listen. Yeah, you know, this snake will kill you, don't go near it. This you know, and uh our ancestors who listened to authority figures were the ones who had children and reproduced.
SPEAKER_00Who survived, who survived, right?
SPEAKER_01But now, I mean it can be mind body spirit is a great example again. It's full of booths of people who talk seemingly knowledgeably about this product, that product. Did you know that your stem cells are falling out because of the parasites and scientists don't want you to know this and government and big farmer and blah blah blah. Yeah, they say it with authority, they probab they could be wearing a white coat or something, they've got a big badge on.
SPEAKER_00A badge was good. I noticed there was a lot of badges. Yeah. And a lot of coats.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and and you're we are evolved, and society has taught us that you know, these people, you listen to what these people know because they obviously know what they're talking about. And in the case what we've discovered is most of these people, uh, it's hard to say most, but quite a deal, a good deal of them, are regurgitating the rubbish they've been told anyway, but speak but speak to us about it as if it's true.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so this this notion of um authority figures, it's uh of course we need that because as you to your point, we need leadership. And in terms of a cohesion and survival of a tribe, yes, yes, if we're all anarchic, doesn't work. It doesn't work. But but you walk into a festival where someone's selling you a patch that's going to um cure cancer.
SPEAKER_01Or do anything, uh whatever they say it does, and and I've seen dozens of these things over the years, from wristbands to amulets to whatever. The the worst one I saw, and it really it was a very many important lessons, and the name simply eludes me at the moment, it was over ten years ago, was a little disc about the size of a poker chip, and you can wear it around your neck, or as the uh uh uh lady at the stall explained to me, if you put this disc on the table and you put a jug of water over the disc, the water will be imbued with the properties of sunblock. What? And then you can put that sunblock on. Safe, natural, effective, right? And she says, Yes, I use it on my grandkids. Now, she's a classic example, uh and she said it with such conviction, uh conviction, she's a classic example of somebody who's simply been duped by these scamming bastards, you know. And so they've sold it to her. Oh, yeah. They're I mean, the people who invent all this stuff know what they're doing. They don't accidentally come up with something and say, Jewel, wow, this this does all these miracle things. No, it's just a source of it's business. You know, it's like the faith healers in America, the big circus tent faith healers, business is business.
Sunblock discs and real-world harm
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So the th okay, let's just take that example of someone who's got a disc, and then you put the jug of water on it, yeah, and then imbues the water with sunblock sunblock properties.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So then this woman has presumably she's got grandkids.
SPEAKER_01And she's bought she's bought it Hookline Land Sinker, and she's getting it in the water, yeah.
SPEAKER_00And she's now putting it on the children's arms, and as we know, thinking it's going to protect them. Yeah. And a friend of my husband's has um he's just about to have three melanomas.
SPEAKER_01I had one on my somewhere around my or did you?
SPEAKER_00You've got very pale skin, haven't you?
SPEAKER_01Oh, reasonably, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Uh Richard's very, very pale. It's a bit like a vampire, listeners.
SPEAKER_01Um you don't see many grey-haired vampires.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, don't they live that long? Oh, they live forever. Oh, they live forever.
SPEAKER_01Maybe I am one.
SPEAKER_00I think you've only been around long enough.
SPEAKER_01It's it's so important to remember that she, on the one hand, she's giving terrible advice. Dangerous advice. And I told her, because usually I hold my tongue, but this time I said, you cannot give this advice. It's but from her point of view, she is imparting to the general public this great, wonderful product that she's a part of and she really believes in.
SPEAKER_00And of course, the back to the melanoma issue is um my friend or my husband's friend who has these three melanomas, they said to him they occurred before he was five. So this is when this is the skin specialist said, the dermatologist said this is all started very young.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_00So if she's putting water on her grandchildren, then she's actually endangering their lives. Like it's very serious.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's and it it's a great example of how, in many cases, in the new age and the um alt-med, uh uh this happens. The other great example would be homeopathic vaccination.
SPEAKER_00You know, so explain, okay. So for for everybody, because we've got listeners all over the world, uh, in Australia, um, our vaccination rates are pretty good. Pretty good. They're dropping a little bit, but even despite the best efforts of the lunatic anti-vax movement here, which is vociferous and says some really crazy shit, um, our vaccination rates aren't bad. I know in the United States at the moment, for instance, there is an outbreak of measles, which which, and if you listen to influences and and the likes of uh what's her name, O'Neill?
SPEAKER_01Barbara.
Homeopathy explained and “vaccinations”
SPEAKER_00Barbara Barbara O'Neill. They love saying this shit. They go, Well, you know, measles just it's naturally occurring for you.
SPEAKER_01There was a book out about a decade ago called Melanie's Marvellous Measles. It's all about how good it is for children to get measles. I kid you not, Google it. Melanie's Marvellous Measles.
SPEAKER_00Oh my god.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. But the we busted, oh, uh, you know, everything goes back a long time now. Sometime in the 2000s, we busted a homeopathic outfit here in Sydney called from memory Gentle Heel, who was selling homeopathic vaccinations. Now, home homeopathy.
SPEAKER_00Oh, let's explain this so that for the people who don't understand uh what homeopathy is, Richard is about to explain it, does my head in.
SPEAKER_01So the principles of homeopathy, there are many, but in essence, if if you get a a vial of um homeopathic liquid or sugar pills, they are water or sugar pills. There's no nothing else there. The idea is that once upon a time they came in contact with an ingredient, but that has been long since removed.
SPEAKER_00What do you mean once upon a time they came across the ingredients?
SPEAKER_01So the idea is if you get a bottle of sugar pills and you pop in one sugar pill which apparently could have been in contact with, say, a lemon, and you shake it out, and then you take one of those sugar pills out and you sh put it into another hundred bottles and do it and do it and do it. It's as it's as ridiculous as it sounds. The bottom line is if you get something which is called homeopathic treatment or whatever, if it's true homeopathy, it doesn't have anything in it. That there are no ingredients, there's just water or sugar. There's nothing there. There's nothing there. It's the mystical spiritual memory vibrations of the ether thing.
SPEAKER_00Thing that that okay, so these people were selling if they're going to vaccinate so I let's just say I've got children, because I uh let's just say I have little children and I have been um influenced by the anti-vaxxers that you shouldn't give you shouldn't vaccinate your children with actual something that does something. Um then I can go to a homeopath and they will give my children what?
SPEAKER_01Well, water or sugar.
SPEAKER_00But what do they say it is?
SPEAKER_01They say it is it's a natural vaccination against um measles, mumps, rubella, hooping cough, chicken pox, um you you name it. Uh so yeah, years ago we busted a company and we gave them the bent I think we gave them the Bent Spoon Award that year for So explain the Bent Spoon Award. It's the Australian skeptics give a discouragement award every year called the Bent Spoon for the most ridiculous piece of you know scam, scammery or something that can't possibly work, or people who think they can talk to the dead or this sort of stuff. And and so but uh with home with that product, I mean we hate to think that parents went to them, got sugar magic sugar fairy water, and thought they were protecting their children.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, because if the child gets hooping cough, I mean children die of hooping cough, they know two ways about it.
SPEAKER_01They do.
SPEAKER_00And and and and and as we know, the measles can give you encephalitis, it's very dangerous.
SPEAKER_01So homeopathy, in our point from our perspective, is an interesting case. It's probably the biggest medical scam in history. It's a scam, it doesn't work, but most people involved with it will will praise it to the grave, thinking it's the best miracle secret, the government doesn't want you to know, it's not used in hospitals because of big pharma conspiracy, on and on and on and on. It's just it's it's magical fairy dust. It's close to witchcraft.
Wakefield’s legacy and sticky myths
SPEAKER_00So, and and may I say that it's that we have a pharmacy here in DY called the Whole Foods Pharmacy, and they have lovely pharmacists, very, very nice pharmacists. I get all my proper pharma medication there, and it's got homeopathy in it.
SPEAKER_01Business is business.
SPEAKER_00Business is business. Business is business, yeah. There's an ethical issue with that, right? I know. There's a really big issue.
SPEAKER_01It's nothing. As the hitman raises his rifle to your head, he says, it's nothing personal. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's business.
SPEAKER_00It's business.
SPEAKER_01It's big business. Trillion dollar business, the whole alt-med supplement industry. Yeah. Big big wellness. Big wellness. Big wellness.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I've just was uh I've uh one of my latest TikToks, um, which has had nearly 30,000 views. Um I you know, I talk about the fact because of course, you know, this narrative coming out of the mouths of the influencers going, big pharma, you know, they're just in the pocket. The doctors are in the pocket of big pharma. And as we know, um wellness is worth many, many, many times. Yeah, I've been using the trillions.
SPEAKER_01Being in the pocket of um big pharma. I caught a bus here today. I didn't drive my Rolls Royce, I caught a bus, you know.
SPEAKER_00I'm I wish I was in the pocket of Big Pharma something. Yeah, but did you actually own that bus? Is that the truth of it? You're very wealthy, you own the B1.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but but but I let somebody else sit up the front.
SPEAKER_00It's really kind of you, Richard. Yeah, when I get the bus, I do the same thing. It is my bus, but I'm like, you sit there and make yourself feel important. Yeah, or yeah, and all the GPs I know that are apparently, you know, in the pocket of Big Pharma, you know, they're sitting on some pretty um big mortgages.
SPEAKER_01How about that?
SPEAKER_00How about that?
SPEAKER_01How about then?
SPEAKER_00But how how does this um imbalance, you know, it's a big get into our brains because it's so it's so frustrating for me and so frustrating for all us skeptics and debunkers that we're hitting all up all the time against these voices of certainty that are that are sort of promoting woo and dangerous things.
SPEAKER_01Critical thinking in science is not natural and it's not easy. Whereas a simple message about the evil's a big farmer is easy. And have you heard of Brandolini's law?
SPEAKER_00Yes, but please explain it.
RFK, hypocrisy, and public health risks
SPEAKER_01Okay, this is more along the l along the lines of uh it takes many times longer to debunk bullshit than it is to say bullshit. In other words, if somebody says something ridiculous or wrong or absolutely, it takes 30 seconds. But if you want to unpack that and explain why it's wrong, it could take you know so long, and by the time you've done that, people have left or gone.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And also once yeah, I know that once a piece of disinformation is out there, as you to your point, even if you refute it, the refutation doesn't stick, but the misinformation does.
SPEAKER_01Well, the the great example of that would be um the lie that vaccines can cause autism by Andrew Wakefield.
SPEAKER_00Andrew Wakefield, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Completely retracted and found to be absolutely wrong, uh scandalous, but it's still out there.
SPEAKER_00So just um in case some of our listeners aren't aware, um Andrew Wakefield was a doctor, he's now been debarred, hasn't he? Yes, struck off. Struck off. Um and I he I think he had a sample size of something like nine or twelve children.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it was a bodgy study. Uh he was also spruking his own commercial interests and everything like that. As always. As always. As always. Uh, but the the point is, of course, it was retracted and and debunked. It it does it's not true. But it persists in the in the large sections of the population who who listen to the anti-vaxxes are still absolutely convinced that vaccines cause autism, and now a large amount of people will probably no doubt think that paracetamol will cause autism.
SPEAKER_00Ah, so um on top of the vaccines. Oh my god, RFK, what have we done? So now we've got RFK in charges.
SPEAKER_01It's nonsense on stilts.
SPEAKER_00It's just nonsense on stilts. It's so dangerous what's happening in America because now not only um apparently do um vaccines cause autism according to the health secretary in America, but also paracetamol causes it.
SPEAKER_01Acetaminophid, paracetamol, yeah.
Why smart people believe weird things
SPEAKER_00But then last week, apparently Trump had his health report, and he's the he's the healthiest president that's ever been born. Well, that's obvious. It's obvious to me. It's obvious to all of us just looking at him, he's incredible. Um that orange stand doesn't come from early, right? Um and he's just been vaccinated, had his flu shot, and his covert shot. So they all do, they're such shocking hypocrites.
SPEAKER_01Well, I you can't it's hard to pin anything on on Mr. Trump. You know, it really is. It's it's it's like they say uh trying to nail jelly to a wall. It's a bit strange. But RFK Jr., yes, he's uh well, where do we start? But let me just say it's not just smart women who fall for all this, it's smart men, it's smart everybody.
SPEAKER_00And why do you think I mean we we talk about this a bit, but I'd like your perspective on it. Um I know a lot of very, very intelligent people, and especially say, in the artistic community, um, who absolutely have a lot of magical thinking going on, a lot of it. So intelligence hasn't protected them. Why do you think that is?
SPEAKER_01Because it's part of our evolutionary history. Unpack that all of us there are many humans on the planet. How many billions are? You can imagine there's a huge variety of um neural activity going on up there.
SPEAKER_00Stuff in your brain. Stuff in your brain.
SPEAKER_01So you'll get people who are brilliant and scientifically minded and good critical thinkers. You'll get people who are brilliant but susceptible to magical thinking, you'll get people who are not very brilliant particularly, but have learned critical thinking. The point is there's a range of people. We get back to why we're here, why we're here is because our parents reproduced. That's all that evolution cares about. You know, so critical thinking and the scientific method are uh, as we said, are relatively new on the scene as far as our species go, but our species was going and uh before all that, and it still goes. Despite all the woo and the magic and the people being ripped off and the bad advice, um, we still carry on as a species. So there's it's an interesting way to look at it, you know. So I would hope that you know, in the in the centuries to come, we'll fine-tune things. You know, things will will settle down, a lot of superstitions will disappear because they always do. If we keep going, yeah. I don't know.
Detox culture, parasites, and “natural” bias
SPEAKER_00I heard somebody on there was a woman online, isn't it? She's saying, she was being interviewed, and she said, you know, it's so beautiful. I was um I was talking to Jesus, and apparently he's um he's bought Charlie Kirk a ranch. And um they were so Jesus and Charlie Kirk have been riding horses together on a ranch, and Charlie's really happy anyway. So she's saying that, and I'm I I'm having to fan myself because I'm like, oh my fucking god. And then um the woman she was so there was two women, right? One was interview, someone was interviewing her, and the woman that was interviewing her was wiping tears away and nodding in this really sincere manner, and I was like, Do you do do you actually believe that? Do you actually believe that? Or have you or are you making it up? Like, I don't know, but they were so sincere.
SPEAKER_01You can't tell sometimes. You really can't tell. Uh, but the good news is, of course, there are people like you aiming your podcast at everybody, not just smart women.
SPEAKER_00Are you going to buy me a ranch though? I'm just asking.
SPEAKER_01You will. Well, I'll buy you a ranch dressing, how about that? For your salad. And there are people like Kate Thomas, who are actively on TikTok looking at this woo and saying, here's the real deal.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so Kate Thomas, um, who Richard and I had the pleasure of going to the Mind Body Body Spirit Festival with, is a pharmacist and she is married to an oncologist. Yeah. And also my daughter was in attendance at that, and she's also studied chemistry and she's a lawyer, and she was walking around going, They can't say this, mum, they can't say it. It's illegal, they can't say this.
SPEAKER_01Well, I've I've wanted Mind Body Spirit to be rated for years.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but it's it's a resourcing thing.
SPEAKER_01It's a resourcing thing, yeah. It's it's just seen as silly light entertainment. Yeah, but there's very bad things happen there.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's it's very bad. So what so because sometimes, especially when RFK was elected. I He wasn't elected, it wasn't elected. No, no, correct. Thank you for that question. It's actually true. When he came to power, I I just wanted to lie down. I was like, Well, how do we get here? And then sometimes I get quite I feel like our voices that are going, don't homeopathically vaccinate your child. You can you can eat gluten safely unless you're um you know unless you're a celiac. Um, you know, dairy isn't necessarily the work of the devil.
SPEAKER_01And sunscreen is is good for you if you go in the sun.
SPEAKER_00Sunscreen is backlash against sunscreen.
SPEAKER_01A lot of people think it's it contains naughty nanoparticles. Oh, nanoparticles.
SPEAKER_00And then there's people And they probably have parasites, right? Yeah, well that's the other thing, is that of course everything with the detoxing and the amount of people, the amount of like because I'm big I'm part of a gym community, and um, you know, I hear the chat around me of the sort of women in their 20s and 30s, everybody's frigging detoxing, they're having these special lemon drinks. I'm like, is it what are you what your liver and kidneys do?
SPEAKER_01Because they've been told by authority figures and it makes sense. From a common sense point of view, it makes sense. It's it's like the the sun coming up instead of the earth going towards the body.
SPEAKER_00So, how does detoxing make sense to explain to me? Because it doesn't make sense to me.
SPEAKER_01Well just just on the face of it. If if you're if you think you've got toxins, whatever they are in your body, and this will get rid of them, that makes sense, doesn't it? It's a simple message.
SPEAKER_00I'm t so I know I've got toxins because I'm maybe tired. But uh why do I think I've got toxins? I've been taught I've got toxins.
SPEAKER_01Are you feeling tired?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
Clean eating, protein hype, and bone broth
SPEAKER_01It's probably toxins. Is that you're feeling tired, right? I am tired. And you all the heavy metals that that build up in your blood and your body. Yeah, I do feel tired. If you wear these foot patches, all the heavy metal are drawn out through your feet. Look, I can put them on your feet tomorrow morning you wake up, they're all brown. Proof positive. That's another scam.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and yeah, so I I'm tired, or perhaps I'm you know, tired and I've got a lot going on, perhaps I'm really stressed.
SPEAKER_01And we go to an authority figure for help.
SPEAKER_00And so I go to a naturopath.
SPEAKER_01Yep. Who you believe knows what they're talking about.
SPEAKER_00Well it's got the word naturopath, has nature embedded in the word. And we have a big bias towards things that are natural, correct?
SPEAKER_01Correct. Yeah, it's it's a it's a one of the best marketing campaigns ever perpetrated on the population.
SPEAKER_00Why do we have a bias towards all natural? Because it's frigging everywhere, right? What's the deal?
SPEAKER_01The deal is it has the inherent promise of being good. Natural is good. It's it's been just drilled into us, you know, where there in truth natural is completely indifferent to us. You know, so nature can kill us, snake bites are natural, you know, poo is natural.
SPEAKER_00Brown bears.
SPEAKER_01Brown bears, you know, arsenic. Uh and we've spent the r the reason that we live such long and healthy lives generally is because we fight against nature. You know.
SPEAKER_00See, isn't that the most fascinating?
SPEAKER_01Again, it's counterintuitive, you see.
SPEAKER_00Let's just look at that for a minute because you know, the amount of marketing, you know, I live above a I live above a woolies, and so I'm up and down, and also there's the pharmacy. Yo-yo loves Richard, by the way. Yo-yo, who's genuinely very leery of people, especially men, has sat at his feet and looked at him like he's a king and at various points offered her pore and has now gone to sleep. That's right. So that's the magic of Richard. Did you give her, did you slip her some? Some homeopotheism. Homeopathic vet stuff, right? Um anyway, so I go up and down these aisles. And the word natural, natural, um additive-free, no artificial colours. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01It appears about no GMO, etc. etc.
SPEAKER_00Oh, no GMO.
SPEAKER_01It's marketing, it's marketing, it's marketing. That's how our society works. It's capitalism, and to a point you can forgive and understand that, and society still functions. But the the the wary buyer will realize that that's just a marketing campaign.
SPEAKER_00So, Nate, this notion of I don't want to have anything processed. I mean, the the the backlash against processed food is just stupid. It's just ridiculous.
Women-targeted wellness and coded language
SPEAKER_01Just just be aware of what you're eating. Let's nice lots of nice healthy fruit and veggies and stuff like that. The odd processed foods.
SPEAKER_00It's all right. Fine, have a bicky. You know, don't eat six Big Macs a day, but apart from that, you're alright.
SPEAKER_01I mean, yeah, generally speaking, again, our population is healthier and lives longer than any at any time in history. So we've got to be doing something, right?
SPEAKER_00And yet we've got this uh appeal to nature. And the other big issue that I have is this notion of clean eating. It's everywhere. You've got to clean eat. Um, and I think clean eating, you know, it sounds like you've got to dust the dirt off your food. It's in fact not. I think I think it's no gluten.
SPEAKER_01Now maybe you you eat while you're cleaning.
SPEAKER_00No clean eating like that. You know, uh a sort of a washer in one hand and uh I don't know, an apple in the other. But I think it's no dairy, I don't know what it is, it's no dairy and it's nothing processed, and all this all that happens from this, especially in women, from say the 20 to mid-40s age bracket, is we end up with disordered eating. And it's based on absolutely nothing.
SPEAKER_01Well, I will make a comment about, and of course, this is the Why Smart Women podcast, and you'll agree with me that when we're at Mind Body Spirit, 75% of the attendees there were women. And why do you think that is? Uh because what is there is marketed to appeal, especially to women. So we are much more vulnerable. Yeah, I mean, let's let's just say, yeah, you you it's true. Be not because it's no fault of women, it's because that's where the market is, and that people know that.
SPEAKER_00So the marketing towards women is much more prevalent. Yes. Because we have I guess there's the hormonal thing because we, you know, we've got the whole um menstrual cycle and then the menopause. And I did notice that the menstrual cycle and menopause was very heavily.
SPEAKER_01I saw that too, yeah.
SPEAKER_00I just saw much because menopause is the new black.
SPEAKER_01And uh this hormonally balancing and a hormonally balancing emotion from society that we women are the caring, spiritual, nurturing, blah, blah, blah, blah. Which is, you know, there's always a grains of truth in it, all of this sort of stuff. But then it's when you go there, you s you see that's oh, what a great angle for marketing. You know, buy this product, buy this herb, buy this.
SPEAKER_00It'll it'll hormonally balance you and fix your inflammation and stop you bloating. Stop. Oh, Richard, get onto it. I need some of that. You need some.
SPEAKER_01But of course, on the upside is, as we all discovered, there were nice things to buy.
SPEAKER_00I didn't like it.
SPEAKER_01You didn't Kate bought some lovely clothes and things you did.
SPEAKER_00I couldn't do it. I bought some chocolate and Lily said. I bought chocolate because I was really hungry. It's the only reason I bought it. Then Lily sidled up to my daughter and she went, Why did you buy that? I said I was really hungry. She went, It's vegan, mum. And I went, ugh.
Spotting red flags and searching skeptically
SPEAKER_01But but as much as it freaked you out, you know that you did the right thing in vegan.
SPEAKER_00I know I did the right thing because otherwise it's this notion that we just sit around being endlessly judgmental. So it's interesting what you say about women, and I think that's really relevant, that we are meant to be the the this the um nurturing spiritual um sort of beings, but we're also meant to be thin, pretty, young, and now we're meant to be um because the now the the code now for thin is fit.
SPEAKER_01Is it strong? Okay, okay, strong.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we don't talk thin, Richard. We talk thin I have I haven't talked thin for years. We haven't talked thin for years, that's right. But you you can talk strong now, you don't have to talk thin. So there's all this coded language. So now the new thing is you don't have to be thin, but you can go to the gym and then you can be really strong, but of course you've got to do that, and then you've got to have 17 different sorts of protein because everything, did you not notice that everything is protein?
SPEAKER_01Everything is well, I thought everything was parasites, but there you go.
SPEAKER_00No, well no, there's parasites that that really live on the protein. I don't know if they do. I don't. But every product, you just go downstairs to Woolworths, okay, and you look at you look for the word protein, yeah. It's everywhere.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Now, we actually don't need that much protein. It's not very good for our kidneys and liver, apparently, but it's absolutely everywhere. Is that and the other thing that has appeared on the shelves is bone broth.
SPEAKER_01There was bone brush at uh bone broth. Bone broth. Probably bone broth, but there was also bone broth at Mind Body Wallet too, wasn't there? Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so that's uh that's I don't know.
SPEAKER_01That's I think that detoxes. Maybe it detoxes your parasites, you know. If your parasites have detox have toxins in them, yeah. They eat that you drink the bone broth, it goes to the parasites and then does what?
SPEAKER_00It didn't it detoxes the parasites, but then they're happy parasites. Then they're happy, then they get then they can go to the gym and they don't have to get thin, they can just get strong. So what you've got is parasites with really developed biceps. Yeah, I think that's what's happening. So there's all this language that we have to cut as women especially and men, but this podcast is aimed at women, that we have to cut through. So if you see some of this language around detoxing or um anti-inflammatory or immune boosting, or the word protein, or the word bone broth, or the word organic, or the word GMO, start thinking, or the word natural.
“Boosting immunity” and other empty claims
SPEAKER_01I it's really it's it's incredibly difficult. It really is. We get back to the point that science and critical thinking is a chore. But uh the quick bit of advice if you are out shopping and you come across something like this bone broth or whatever, Google it plus the word skeptic or sceptical review. At least thinking. At least have a look. You might find something written by the Committee for Skeptical Inquiry or the Australian Skeptics or some some credible doctors saying, well, we've looked at this, and here is what we've found. It's it's it will behoove you to do that.
SPEAKER_00So you look up the word skeptic or sceptical inquirer. Can you look up the word scam? I often look up scam.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Um I would probably opt for skeptical, but you can all you can look for both simply because it's it's a bit laden, the word scam. Yeah, yeah. We're skeptical. Skeptical means that you hopefully you will find a critical analysis. Somebody who's looked at it not from a cynical point of view, but from a skeptical point, a questioning point of view. What's really behind this, you know?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so I think I think that's a really good thing to do because it's very difficult for us to make that assessment. I noticed that Kate and Lily, it was quite easy for them to turn a product over and look at the side of it and go, that doesn't make sense. Whereas I wouldn't know.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, the general why would the general public pub population know? That's they stream in there by the thousands, they don't have that education.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah. So we need to start maybe spreading the word that if you see a product, what you can do is look up the word skeptic and they will assess the claims. You know, that one of the the biggest claims I see on things that will is it will boost your immune system.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's a meaningless term. It's meaningless.
SPEAKER_00You don't want to boost your immune system.
SPEAKER_01I'm surprised they haven't changed that to balance because we all want a balanced immune system. Yeah, balanced brain. But boost is a great word because it It's got energy behind it. It's got energy, it's it's easily understood, and you think that it makes it better. It's going to be better, but in fact, you don't want to be able to do it. No, you don't want no, because that leads to things like autoimmune disorders and things like that. Which are the result of overactivity.
SPEAKER_00So just think next time you see the word, you know, boost your immune system, look up skeptical and next the sceptical inquirer and next inquiry.
SPEAKER_01Well, just just the word skeptical. And in fact, that's a great start. Everybody, uh, after you've listened to this podcast, go to and put in quotes boost your immune system, and then after that, type in the word skeptical or sceptical review and see what you find. See what you find. And you'll have a better understanding of this meaningless term.
SPEAKER_00And I think we might do that every week, Harrison. We might come up with a term like organic or anti-GMO.
SPEAKER_01Anti-GMO. Parasites. I I I you you put me on the parasites. I you keep I love it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Oh, I told you, and they were falling out of me as I was around the festival. Well, I think we've covered quite a lot. What do you think about it?
SPEAKER_01I think we've done very well indeed.
SPEAKER_00And I think we have to keep going with our dual our dual.
SPEAKER_01Our Why Smart Women's Zone. That's right.
SPEAKER_00Why Smart Women's Owner?
SPEAKER_01The Why Smart Women's Own podcast.
Takeaways, resources, and staying skeptical
SPEAKER_00Well, I think that was very helpful. So thank you so much for coming all the way to the Northern Beaches and calming down yo-yo. Yes, it's like again magical homeopathy drops that you clearly put on her tongue. I snuck them in. You snuck them in, you sneaky Richard.
SPEAKER_01And enjoy the files I've given you. Folks, I've given Annie my complete archive of AltMed files I've collected over the past quarter of a century. It's absolutely terrible. You'll have nightmares watching this.
SPEAKER_00I will. I've I'm all I'm just as you know, I've had to drink three glasses of gin this morning just to get over two days ago. So thank you so much, Richard. Thank you. Thank you so much, Harrison, as usual. Um, and to all the listeners, stay safe, stay well, wherever you are in the world, and remember, keep your critical thinking hats on. See you later. Bye. Thanks for tuning in to Why Smart Women with me, Annie McCubbin. I hope today's episode has ignited your curiosity and left you feeling inspired by my anti-motivational style. Join me next time as we continue to unravel the fascinating layers of our brains and develop ways to sort out the fact from the fiction and the over 6,000 thoughts we have in the course of every day. Remember, intelligence isn't enough. You can be as smart as paint, but it's not just about what you know, it's about how you think. And in all this talk of whether or not you can trust your gut. If you ever feel unsafe, whether it's in the street, at work, car park, in a bar, or in your own home, please, please respect that gut feeling. Staying safe needs to be our primary objective. We can build better lives, but we have to stay safe to do that. And don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review the podcast and share it with your fellow smart women and allies. Together we're hopefully reshaping the narrative around women and making better decisions. So until next time, stay sharp, stay savvy, and keep your critical thinking at shiny. This is Annie McCubbin signing off from White Smart Women. See you later. This episode was produced by Harrison Hest. It was executive produced and written by me, Annie McCubbin.
